Adding to the Boost

[Momurderer]

Hey everyone, I had some ideas for adding to Sonic's Boost and, instead of forever talking about it in the 4.0 thread, I thought I'd move it here.

The addition of the half second cooldown for 4.0 seems like a good choice. As a Sonic main (I might be a King Dedede main but I'm unsure) I don't see that as a nerf or a buff but something that needs to be done. Still it seems like more may need to be done to put boost on a level where people who hate it and hate to play against it won't feel that way anymore, like haters.

The number one complaint I hear is of Sonic being able to punish from anywhere on the stage (the number two complaint is him being able to recover from anywhere better than anyone and to that I say, 'Someone's got to be the best'). The speed of Boost is just too great for their slower inferior characters and, couple that with no end lag, his punishing ability seems like a justifiable complaint. To level out and still add to Boost it could be given end lag in the form of an animation when the move is stopped but only on the ground. Have Boost behave in two different ways, on the ground and in the air.

Ground Boost
Ending with Sonic coming to a sliding halt.
The slide at the end of the move could also result in a quick attack if allowed to finish.
(I played a lot of Bridget in Guilty Gear X2 and she/he could rush in with a quick skate and perform a stop that would kick up sparks and damage or finish it with a jump and yo yo spin, yo.)
The ending slide could be cancelled (jump or shield or both?) to still allow for Boost ground combos and chases but just a bit slower than it's current way.

Air Boost
Stays as it is but with the half second cooldown.
I feel like this where Boost has the most combo and chasing game and it already works nicely.

Just wanted to know what everyone thought or any other ideas. Thanks.

Edit: After some thought and a brief time with 4.0b, I think Sonic should keep his Air Boost as it was in 3.Q with no cooldown. Ain't nobody got time for a cooldown.

 

[Valravn]

I really really really dislike the current state of Boost. It's a move that's supposed to make me go fast, but it feels clunky as hell to have to pause to cover myself with an aerial or whatever for half a second every time I want to do anything with it. Sonic isn't necessarily bad with his 4.0b boost, but he's a whole lot more frustrating to play. Anyone that was salty about Sonic in 3.Q isn't going to be less salty now, either.

Honestly, the move doesn't need to be slower, or less spammable. What it might need is to be more punishable. Make Sonic's hurtbubbles a little bigger during Boost.

Boom, solved.

 

[Momurderer]

Boom! now we're getting answers.

Bigger hurtbubbles would help out. I don't know if it'll stop people from saying 'swing for the fences' if you give them a bigger ball but it's definitely a start. Sonic really isn't all that hard to hit when you get the chance. Like Valravan said in the 4.0b forum, Sonic is a fairly big character and lightweight so when the hitting starts then he starts hurting pretty fast. I think he's pretty easy to KO when caught in a combo. I've fought a Charizard player quite a bit and I combo the shit out of him and manage to stay away pretty well but Zard's rocks limit Sonic's movement pretty well and when I do get caught I get raped with some good comboing.

Many characters are hard to catch when they just run away. Sonic just has the ability to come back at you faster than anyone but, alas, he does eventually have to come back at you.

 

[Thor]

"Sonic is supposed to go fast and boost feels clunky and slow"

*checks run speed*

Maybe you could, I dunno, use the control stick WITHOUT hitting B?

I'm significantly happier with boost as is because boost dancing is (basically) gone, although Sonic's dair being a true spike that kills at ~15% offstage at ledge height is infuriating given how he can throw you and boost in dair, plus the fact that literally only Sonic has a true spike [it breaks the rule of the game that you can meteor cancel things that send you downward... if spikes are going to be a thing, Marth's side+B down 3 should be a spike [and probably Falcon's chest hitbox on dair], but if they're not going to be a thing, then remove them all, not just all but one].

Also, the poll at the top is rigged to favor an answer of "No", because 30 frame cooldown is probably fine [fine-tuning may be required], and a 25 frame cooldown is also probably fine [again, testing pending, I don't have my setup on me], but both of those answers fall under "No", so I decided to not vote.

Sonic really isn't all that hard to hit when you get the chance.

If Sonic is using boost well, you should never get the chance [as was explained earlier with PPMD vs Armada in the other thread], given that Sonic has a significantly wider margin of error since you can DD and boost to immediately adjust then immediately punish, or just boost dance and watch the opponent flail.

Sonic Boom! now we're getting answers.

I disagree, but fixed that for you : P

Like Valravan said in the 4.0b forum, Sonic is a fairly big character and lightweight so when the hitting starts then he starts hurting pretty fast. I think he's pretty easy to KO when caught in a combo.

Unless they enlarged him, Sonic is on the smaller end of characters, and everyone dies easily when caught in a combo [64-esque hitstun will do that]. Sonic also has insane combo ability, so saying "well we each die easily" isn't helpful when Sonic can get in so much easier via running away and boosting in. That's like trying to argue Falco Falcon in Melee is fair because they can both zero-death each other - that's just not how it works.

I've fought a Charizard player quite a bit and I combo the shit out of him and manage to stay away pretty well but Zard's rocks limit Sonic's movement pretty well and when I do get caught I get raped with some good comboing.

Many characters are hard to catch when they just run away. Sonic just has the ability to come back at you faster than anyone but, alas, he does eventually have to come back at you.

Ignoring your dubious language, 'zard having an option to help him navigate Sonic is nice, but very few people in the cast actually have tools like that [TL too, but no others I can think of].

And Sonic is fast enough that he only has to come back when he sees you commit, which is the problem - he is so fast he can run forever while you give chase [spring -> boost to land >_>] then if you commit to anything, it's boost -> get rekt and lose a stock.

 

[Kien]

I remember when you didn't think Sonic was OP Thor, hehe. Then I took you to Rumble Falls and well... bad things happened in a short amount of time.

 

[Neville]

I've never had a problem against Sonic's boost, though this may just be character choice. I recall Peach dair being hard for Sonic to deal with since it had little enough endlag to be unpunishable out of boost.

 

[Kien]

None of my top 4 ever had problems with it either.

Link, TL, Lucario, or Pit.

 

[Valravn]

I honestly think the problems people have posited with Boost have been blown way out of proportion.

And Thor, you can't run in the air.

 

[Momurderer]

The poll in this thread is worded wrong but I already think everyone knows what to talk about.

I've only fought one other person and I can say that he never really had much of a problem with Sonic either. Our matches would usually go either way and I think he's a pretty good player, for sure he's the best in his group of friends but I haven't played any of them. He mains TL and his top characters would be Charizard, Bowser, Peach, and he was getting decent with Squirtle but not that decent. It seemed like he could usually find an answer and put a heck of a fight.

Is Boost dancing the problem then? I do agree that this issue gets blown out of proportion. In the first post I mention maybe giving Boost on the ground a dedicated attack animation. That way running back and forth would be slowed down someting like Ike's side B. I don't know.

 

[Neville]

The problem isn't that boost dancing in OP, it's that it polarizes his matchups and makes people who can handle it have good matchups against him, while those who can't handle it get pooped on.

 

[Valravn]

Out of curiosity, what characters get pooped on by it? Puff and Bowser come to mind, but I haven't played against anyone who practices either regularly.

 

[Thor]

I remember when you didn't think Sonic was OP Thor, hehe. Then I took you to Rumble Falls and well... bad things happened in a short amount of time.

I remember when I used to think dash-dancing wasn't that good in Minus.

Then I saw that set at Apex 2015 and then looked at Minus again and went "Oh crap Sonic is broken."

Your Sonic didn't really do much to change my mind, except make me worry about a Sonic in practice offline.

I'd definitely fight you again on any stage though [except original Temple/similarly massive stages because it's impossible to stop the timeout].

Out of curiosity, what characters get pooped on by it? Puff and Bowser come to mind, but I haven't played against anyone who practices either regularly.

Mario Luigi [rip Thunderbrand armor] Wario Ganondorf Captain Falcon Fox Pikachu Olimar [well that depends on if Sonic's nair shakes Pikmin off effectively] Marth Falco [slow lasers might make this doable if he can get a taunt out] GnW [pre-shotgun neutral B, idk how that works so it might mess things up for Sonic], Peach (? should be able to jump over her dair/homing attack her or wait for her to land... but it might be harder than it sounds, since the same advice could be given in Melee and it's rarely that simple), Kirby DK Ike Sheik? [with vanish nerf it's harder but she actually has the nair and jabs to make this livable, as well as the chain being a bit silly if not effective] Yoshi Roy all likely get pooped on by this [again, all characters that struggle with a better-than-them dash-dance, and this is just amping it up to 11], and possibly Samus Pichu [I know nothing of Pichu] DDD [dunno how that would work at ALL] and Link. Also Puff Bowser as mentioned.

ROB's gyro, Snake's grenades [if they work like I'd guess], Diddy bananas, and TL's arrows are all HUGE. ZSS frame 1 jab combined with her low-lag stuff [if it still is] could help maybe. I'd imagine that Zelda is ironically able to keep up despite her slow speed with some of her tilts, but it's very risky for her nonetheless. ICs ice blocks are likely useful as well, but not sure if they're enough. Ditto Wolf blaster [the added hitbox and laser stun is useful, the slow lasers were actually quite helpful] and Pit's bow [also angel-ring at the DD is surprisingly obnoxious since there's a shield cancel]. Lucario is weird because while he gets pooped on somewhat, he has counter and aura makes him especially terrifying, while also making aura sphere a much bigger threat. No idea how Ness and Lucas interact with it, given the oddities of their PK projectiles and aerials. Meta Knight in 3.Q probably straight up beat it because lol Mach Tornado but I don't know how that works in 4.0b now. If you count PT as one character, Charizard rock smash is a godsend. If you count them as 3, squirtle has weird armor and Ivysaur... I dunno about Ivysaur but she has some whack hitboxes on dair and the Ivycopter that might be all she needs.

But I'd state at least 2/3 of the cast is probably shut down by this hard-core, and a lot of characters have limited answers at best, or rather gimmicky ones.

 

[Kien]

That's all that matters to me. Is that at least one person sees why I wasn't buffing Sonic back when everyone was complaining about how weak he was. I'd fight you if I still played Minus, but I dunno...

 

[Neville]

Peach's dair is slightly disjointed, meaning Sonic needs to be level with Peach in order to avoid being daired, and Peach has enough time to attempt to avoid homing attack.

 

[Momurderer]

Speaking of Peach, I sometimes find it impossible to escape a well timed string of down smashes. It just keeps hitting and tripping me and my attempts to DI out of it are usually futile. Anyone else have this problem?

 

[Thor]

Speaking of Peach, I sometimes find it impossible to escape a well timed string of down smashes. It just keeps hitting and tripping me and my attempts to DI out of it are usually futile. Anyone else have this problem?

I've seen it, but I've gotten a lot better about SDI [being waveshined by local Fox players as Link forces me to adapt <_<] so I doubt I'd have this issue anymore... I think DI out might be insufficient, and SDI may be required, but I don't believe it locks you.

Ivysaur's usmash on the other hand...

 

[Neville]

Speaking of Peach, I sometimes find it impossible to escape a well timed string of down smashes. It just keeps hitting and tripping me and my attempts to DI out of it are usually futile. Anyone else have this problem?

I gotta test to seeif this is a true combo, but I don't think it is.

 

[Valravn]

I don't know if it's a lack of timing on their part, but I've usually been able to SDI out. You can definitely get hit by it again if you're not paying too much attention though.