[4.0f] Replace Drag Luigi with Classic Luigi Costumes

[Bent 00]

Not everyone is happy that in Brawl- 4.0f, Luigi is getting four costume slots of him DRessed As a Girl (DRAG):

The purpose of this thread is to come up with four new costumes to replace the drag outfits.

The only two rules are:

1.) The four new outfits must be "Classic Luigi", and not him pretending to be an entirely different character.

I'm thinking one or two slots for Mr. L would be a good fit.

2.) The four new outfits should not cause WiFi or Netplay online matches to desync.

Players who use these four new outfits should be able to play with players using vanilla 4.0f without problems.
If that's not going to be possible for technical reasons, disregard Rule #2, and we'll just include a Desync Warning with this texture pack.

We'll need the costumes' .pcs and .pac files, plus corresponding Character Select Screen Portraits and Battle Portraits, in both Brawl Art and Minus Art styles.

Once we have those, we'll just need detailed instructions that will tell players how to replace the four drag outfits with the four new outfits.

Who's up for this? Should be a pretty simple project. First we have to decide which four costumes to use.

 

[Bent 00]

Cross-Posting this here, since it's relevant:

Personally, I don't want Drag Luigi in the game at all, because I don't think any costume slots should be of a character pretending to be a completely different character. Wearing only another (related) character's colors on your own model is one thing, but that Peach outfit is like giving one of Luigi's costume slots to Peach -- are you also going to give Peach a Luigi outfit?

If you ask me, every costume slot a character has should be a costume that represents a Classic version of that character. Anyone even remotely familiar with video games should be able to look at it and say "Yep, that's classic Luigi". Not, "Eh? Why is Luigi dressed like Peach?"

I also think the Minus Dev Team should stick to their "NO MODEL SWAPS / heavy vertexing" rule for costumes.

Any suggestions or advice?
Definitely. Textures based on the character's source, Nintendo, or video games in general are a good idea of what to aim for. Failing that, making textures that simply look awesome will work just fine. Also, this is important, but NO MODEL SWAPS. Only retextures and little vertexing, at the very most. Think the Koopalings and Alph in SSB4, and that's how far we'd go.

Pin said you don't want "Brawl Vault Quality" in Minus, but Drag Luigi looks like he came straight from there (no offense to Brawl Vault). This is an example of Breaking the Limits on Silliness. Is that really what you want Minus to be known for? Being silly? I thought we were (mostly) past that.

Besides, Princess Luigi just doesn't translate well to a 3D model. In both the Super Mario Adventures and the SuperStar Saga appearances, Luigi's Peach disguise was good enough to fool Bowser & the Koopalings / Bowletta & Fawful, but the version you're planning to include in 4.0f wouldn't fool anyone.

Also, consider this: Making it into Smash Bros. is like being invited into the grandest tournament ever. If you were invited to such an event, and were told you can bring 10 outfits, you'd want each outfit to represent YOU at your best, wouldn't you? Would you bring along an old Halloween costume? To Luigi, that Peach costume was just a means to an end. It was a disguise he used to trick the enemy out of necessity. Even if he ended up enjoying the cosplay session, Luigi only dressed up in drag twice (in canon): once in SuperStar Saga, and once in Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door. Both times were done out of necessity, not because Luigi wanted to. I think it's safe to say that Luigi would not bring along the Peach disguise to a Super Smash Bros. Tournament -- not even the Minus version, which gets goofy quite often.

 

[Sammi-husky]

To Luigi, that Peach costume was just a means to an end. It was a disguise he used to trick Bowser and co. out of necessity. Even if he ended up enjoying the cosplay session, Luigi only dressed up in drag twice (in canon): once in SuperStar Saga, and once in Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (the latter time was out of necessity too). I think it's safe to say that Luigi would not bring along the Peach disguise to a Super Smash Bros. Tournament -- not even the Minus version, which gets goofy quite often.

Dress Luigi isn't just thrown in for no reason. It's a nod to a well known glitch in brawl that resulted in Luigi looking like he was wearing peach's dress. On another note entirely, Bent, we put in Luigi's alt costume because we as developers wanted it. If you don't like it, im truly sorry. Make your opinion known and move on.

We love everyone's feedback, but unless there are legitimate gameplay concerns, it's not going to be changed. The game is made by us first and foremost, because we love making this game. The community developed around that because they liked it, not because we catered to them. You can't expect to agree with everything we do, and we can't expect you to like everything we do either. We love feedback, and we go out of our way to make sure as many people are happy as possible, but we've already made our decision long ago on this matter.

I realize this is the custom mods section and not specifically related to minus, but you are coming off slightly condescending and felt the need to respond.

 

[Bent 00]

On another note entirely, Bent, we put in Luigi's alt costume because we as developers wanted it. If you don't like it, im truly sorry. Make your opinion known and move on.

We love everyone's feedback, but unless there are legitimate gameplay concerns, it's not going to be changed. The game is made by us first and foremost, because we love making this game. The community developed around that because they liked it, not because we catered to them. You can't expect to agree with everything we do, and we can't expect you to like everything we do either. We love feedback, and we go out of our way to make sure as many people are happy as possible, but we've already made our decision long ago on this matter.

"Brawl Minus: BY the Devs, FOR the Devs". That should be the new slogan. Har har.

I realize this is the custom mods section and not specifically related to minus, but you are coming off slightly condescending and felt the need to respond.

Kindly point out where I was condescending? I tried to keep my points fact-based.

 

[Mach 7]

Cross-Posting this here, since it's relevant:

Personally, I don't want Drag Luigi in the game at all, because I don't think any costume slots should be of a character pretending to be a completely different character. Wearing only another (related) character's colors on your own model is one thing, but that Peach outfit is like giving one of Luigi's costume slots to Peach -- are you also going to give Peach a Luigi outfit?

If you ask me, every costume slot a character has should be a costume that represents a Classic version of that character. Anyone even remotely familiar with video games should be able to look at it and say "Yep, that's classic Luigi". Not, "Eh? Why is Luigi dressed like Peach? Is he...?"

I also think the Minus Dev Team should stick to their "NO MODEL SWAPS / heavy vertexing" rule for costumes.


Pin said you don't want "Brawl Vault Quality" in Minus, but Drag Luigi looks like he came straight from there (no offense to Brawl Vault). This is an example of Breaking the Limits on Silliness. Is that really what you want Minus to be known for? Being silly? I thought we were (mostly) past that.

Besides, Princess Luigi just doesn't translate well to a 3D model. In both the Super Mario Adventures and the SuperStar Saga appearances, Luigi's Peach disguise was good enough to fool Bowser & the Koopalings / Bowletta & Fawful, but the version you're planning to include in 4.0f wouldn't fool anyone.

Also, consider this: Making it into Smash Bros. is like being invited into the grandest tournament ever. If you were invited to such an event, and were told you can bring 10 outfits, you'd want each outfit to represent YOU at your best, wouldn't you? Would you bring along an old Halloween costume? To Luigi, that Peach costume was just a means to an end. It was a disguise he used to trick Bowser and co. out of necessity. Even if he ended up enjoying the cosplay session, Luigi never dressed up in drag again (only the SuperStar Saga disguise is canon). I think it's safe to say that Luigi would not bring along the Peach disguise to a Super Smash Bros. Tournament -- not even the Minus version, which gets goofy quite often.

*There is no one forcing you to play as this costume. It is an alternate costume. Completely optional. We put it in because we thought it was a silly and fun idea to implement, and speaking of "Breaking the Limits on Silliness", if that means that there's no room for some fun (which by the way, is the entire point of this project), then why bother with alt. costumes in the first place?

*The NO MODEL SWAPS rule only applied to the cBliss submissions page. Applying it to the dev team would heavily restrict what we can creatively do with characters and lessen the chance that the community would like what we would put out.

*The Princess Luigi model is in no way going to be how it will be at release. It was simply presentable enough for the teaser and there is still work to be done on it to make sure it's fully polished. Also, it doesn't matter if it's supposed to fool anyone into thinking it's Peach or not. It's a costume for Luigi in a fighting game, not a disguise.

*The rest of your "argument" is based on emotional aspects for a video game character appearing in a fighting game. The beautiful thing about Brawl hacking is that you have the power to edit and replace whatever you want in the game. If you don't like the completely optional, made for the community, effort-consuming, alternate costumes that we believed would be a great addition to Brawl-, then it's not particularly hard to replace them yourself with whatever you want. Making a crusade against this by making your own thread calling out to the community for a replacement is not the answer to this non-existent problem. Do not try and take away something that most people might actually enjoy as well as something that we (particularly I) will spend countless hours putting our hearts into out of our love for Smash.

 

[Bent 00]

The beautiful thing about Brawl hacking is that you have the power to edit and replace whatever you want in the game. If you don't like the completely optional, made for the community, effort-consuming, alternate costumes that we believed would be a great addition to Brawl-, then it's not particularly hard to replace them yourself with whatever you want. Making a crusade against this by making your own thread calling out to the community for a replacement is not the answer to this non-existent problem. Do not try and take away something that most people might actually enjoy as well as something that we (particularly I) will spend countless hours putting our hearts into out of our love for Smash.

Look, I said it in the first post:

"Not everyone is happy that in Brawl- 4.0f, Luigi is getting four costume slots of him DRessed As a Girl (DRAG)"

"The purpose of this thread is to come up with four new costumes to replace the drag outfits."

This thread is not a "crusade" against anyone, it's just here to make the replacement of Luigi's four drag outfits as easy as possible for people who don't like them. Those four costumes are going to be in 4.0f by default, so there's nothing I can do to take them away from anyone without their consent. All I want to do is make it simple for people to replace content they don't like in Minus. If anyone in the community wants to help me do that, great! If not, that's fine too. This is the Custom Mods section, so I don't see why you devs are acting offended and getting all high-and-mighty on me. You don't like that some people don't want to see Luigi in drag? Fine, make your game the way you want. But don't tell us we can't mod your mod the way we want.

Just for fun, an excerpt from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door:
Jerry the Bob-omb: "Hi, I guess. I'm Jerry. I'm a Bob-omb from Plumpbelly Village. Nice meeting you. Sorry I sound so down, but you would be too if you saw Luigi dressed as a bride. I'm serious. It scarred me. It was honestly scarier than that giant snake-thing. I feel I now have a moral duty to stop Luigi from ever dressing as a bride again. I have to protect the world from my fate. That's why I'm sticking close to this guy."

Jerry the Bob-omb is now the official Mascot of this Thread.

 

[Sammi-husky]

Nobody is saying not to mod the game how you want. But calling into question our decisions is kind of uncalled for, but fine you have that right as a player. But when you go to the extent you did in that post, it feels like your venting such displeasure towards us as a team that it seems almost self righteous, ungrateful even.

Your post wasnt strictly "Hey guys, heres a thread on how we can replace that skin" it was more like "THAT IS THE WORST SKIN EVER, I DON'T AGREE WITH IT, WHAT ARE YOU GUYS DOING UP THERE. HEY LETS MAKE A THREAD ABOUT HOW WE CAN GET RID OF IT SINCE THEY WON'T BUDGE ON REMOVING IT"

See the intentions are the same, but one is strictly custom mods and the other is mixed with a great deal of unpleasantness. Now, to avoid you missing the point of what im saying, i am NOT saying that ^ that is what you said. Im saying that the post came off in a similar fashion. Mod the game how you want, but you don't need to make a post that's almost as if your taking jabs at us. Which, you literally did with:

Pin said you don't want "Brawl Vault Quality" in Minus, but Drag Luigi looks like he came straight from there (no offense to Brawl Vault). This is an example of Breaking the Limits on Silliness. Is that really what you want Minus to be known for? Being silly? I thought we were (mostly) past that.

That's just unpleasant.

 

[Sammi-husky]

The custom mods boards are for showing off custom mods that have been made, not safe haven threads to pretty much criticize what you don't like in a rude and disrespectful manner.

We're all for modding the mod, but this feels like nothing more than a thinly veiled post thread for you not liking Princess Luigi and trying to use the custom mods board as a safe haven

Not that we can't take criticism, but you've posted your dislike in several threads now in a similar fashion to Warlock Punch and you have to understand that we understand your criticism, but we aren't going to change everything in the game to cater to your liking. If you wish to do that, by all means do exactly that, in fact, as an open source mod, we even encourage it.

 

[Shin F.]

This thread is not a "crusade" against anyone...
...
... All I want to do is make it simple for people to replace content they don't like in Minus.

In that case, why not expand the thread for all future costumes, as opposed to just this one? It's been confirmed that every character will have ten costumes, and obviously, there's always going to be someone out there who dislikes them and wants to replace them with something more to their taste.

 

[Doqtor Kirby]

I'd main drag Luigi tbh

 

[Bent 00]

But when you go to the extent you did in that post, it feels like your venting such displeasure towards us as a team that it seems almost self righteous, ungrateful even.

I don't see how you got "self righteous" or "ungrateful" out of what I posted. I've said before that I'm plenty grateful to the Minus devs for their work, but there are several things that I'll never agree with you on. This is one of them.

Your post wasnt strictly "Hey guys, heres a thread on how we can replace that skin" it was more like "THAT IS THE WORST SKIN EVER, I DON'T AGREE WITH IT, WHAT ARE YOU GUYS DOING UP THERE. HEY LETS MAKE A THREAD ABOUT HOW WE CAN GET RID OF IT SINCE THEY WON'T BUDGE ON REMOVING IT"

Actually, "Hey guys, here's a thread on how we can replace that skin" describes my first post in here pretty well. I detailed my reasons for wanting to replace them in my second post, and my arguments were fair.

See the intentions are the same, but one is strictly custom mods and the other is mixed with a great deal of unpleasantness. Now, to avoid you missing the point of what im saying, i am NOT saying that ^ that is what you said. Im saying that the post came off in a similar fashion. Mod the game how you want, but you don't need to make a post that's almost as if your taking jabs at us.

The custom mods boards are for showing off custom mods that have been made, not safe haven threads to pretty much criticize what you don't like in a rude and disrespectful manner.

Where is this "unpleasantness"? In your head? Where, exactly, was I "rude" and "disrespectful"? The only thing I posted that could be construed as offensive was the Brawl Vault comparison, and you'd have to be pretty sensitive to take offense from that, considering it's a fair likening. I can't help it if you read my posts with snark that I didn't intend.

Valid Criticism:
"I don't like this because I think it is not appropriate, and here are detailed reasons why."

Taking Jabs:
"I don't like this because [insert personal insults]."

"Pin said you don't want "Brawl Vault Quality" in Minus, but Drag Luigi looks like he came straight from there (no offense to Brawl Vault). This is an example of Breaking the Limits on Silliness. Is that really what you want Minus to be known for? Being silly? I thought we were (mostly) past that."

That's just unpleasant.

What do you think of when I say "Brawl Vault"? A bunch of random stuff, most of which is not professional-quality, right? There's plenty of good stuff in there, but the vast majority of it is content that is either too low-quality or too obscure to include in a professional-quality game. Wouldn't you say that drag Luigi is really obscure? You guys had to reeeaaachhh really far for that one costume, much less four of them. What are you going to do for the other three dresses, Daisy, Rosalina, and Bride colors? None of those have had canon appearances. At any rate, the comparison to Brawl Vault is valid. If you take offense from that, maybe you shouldn't include such obscure elements on prominent features, like costumes?

As for "Breaking the Limits on Silliness", that is apparently a good thing now? It wasn't too long ago that we were trying to weed out the goofy stuff. Forgive me for being confused as to which level of silliness is appropriate -- I was judging Minus by the same Quality Standards as I judged Project M. The problem with being all about JUST FOR FUN and SILLY MEMES is that you fall back on those when you're criticized. Something doesn't make sense from a design or balance perspective? "That's in there for the lols! We're not removing it because we think it's so funny." I say Project M had the right idea: Keep the silliness to a minimum, and take the game and all of its elements seriously. But you do you, Minus...

In that case, why not expand the thread for all future costumes, as opposed to just this one? It's been confirmed that every character will have ten costumes, and obviously, there's always going to be someone out there who dislikes them and wants to replace them with something more to their taste.

That's a good idea, if more controversial costumes end up being added. If there are a bunch of elements in 4.0f that I think more than a few people won't like, I may start a new thread like the one you suggested -- but for now, this mini project is just for replacing Luigi's four drag outfits.

...

Can we stop littering this thread with pointless drama now?

What are some good ideas for alternate Luigi costumes? All I have at the moment is Mr. L.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I don't see why one person should feel like they need to take up the torch to lead a nonexistent group of people that "hate" a model that was given to a single character. Why does this topic need to exist at all, when people can modify whatever model of costume however they want anyway? This seems like a total waste of effort for one person's dislikes towards dev choices for the official build of the mod.

 

[Bent 00]

I don't see why one person should feel like they need to take up the torch to lead a nonexistent group of people that "hate" a model that was given to a single character. Why does this topic need to exist at all, when people can modify whatever model of costume however they want anyway? This seems like a total waste of effort for one person's dislikes towards dev choices for the official build of the mod.

Trust me, I'm not the only one who's going to dislike Drag Luigi. And there are plenty of players who don't know how to replace costumes and CSS/Battle Portraits. The purpose of this thread is to make the replacement of those four controversial costumes as easy as possible.

It's not a waste of effort, because this should be a really easy project, and if anyone is willing to work on it, it must matter to them.

I want this to be one of several unofficial Minus "fixes" that players can easily add to their game if they would like.

I don't anticipate many more things will need "fixing" in 4.0f... but I'd better not get my hopes up.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Wouldn't it make more sense to just make a thread dedicated to helping people understand how to change things in general instead of making a topic with a title that specifically targets a single character?

 

[Bent 00]

Wouldn't it make more sense to just make a thread dedicated to helping people understand how to change things in general instead of making a topic with a title that specifically targets a single character?

If you want to make that thread, go ahead.

Me, I think I'll be OK with all the costumes in 4.0f except for Drag Luigi -- thus the specific mission of this topic.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Why should I make a thread that I have no interest in making? You want to make things easier for those who want to replace these specific models, and claim not everyone will know how to, and when I suggest making a topic that tells people how to instead of targeting a single character, you tell me to make it myself? Bent, you're treading on thin ice as it is. Don't claim you're helping people if your goal is to only help people that agree with you.

 

[Bent 00]

I have no interest in making a generic tutorial like that. I want to make easy, simple fixes that address specific problems.

My goal here is to help only people who agree with me. Nothing wrong with that. Why would I cater to people who disagree with me about this?

...Can we please can the stupid drama already? I just want to replace four costumes, and show others how to do it. Shouldn't be a big deal.

After looking through Brawl Vault a bit, I'm thinking 2x Mr. L and 2x Dr. Luigi would be a good pack of replacement costumes, since the idea is to go for outfits that are "special" and not just recolors. Other good costumes I saw were Casino Luigi and NES Open Luigi (Stars & Stripes).

 

[Gold_TSG]

...Can we please can the stupid drama already?

Spoiler

I'll leave you to your own devices.

 

[Bent 00]

On second thought, Dr. Luigi isn't going to work because his pills won't translate over Minus Luigi's fireballs.

I guess the four Mr. L costumes from Project M are the best four costumes to use.

That was easy. Man, Project M really did professional work. What a shame it wasn't finished.

 

[Pin Clock]

The problem with being all about JUST FOR FUN and SILLY MEMES is that you fall back on those when you're criticized. Something doesn't make sense from a design or balance perspective? "That's in there for the lols! We're not removing it because we think it's so funny." I say Project M had the right idea: Keep the silliness to a minimum, and take the game and all of its elements seriously. But you do you, Minus...

Brawl Minus was founded on silly, evolved on silly, and silly is only modified if it isn't fun to play against or universally disliked (in which case it's not silly but annoying).

Also canon is usually a weak argument because this series is Super Smash Bros., which is known for taking tons of liberties on characters, and a lot of canon things would be terrible (Why doesn't Roy's sword break after 20 hits?) in a fighting game perspective. In addition to that, being strict to canon also heavily restricts the creative ability Brawl Minus is known for. Can you name me a Mario game where Bowser grabs people, tosses them into the sky, and slams them onto the ground? Me neither.

 

[Destructo]

Stop, wait. From what I've observed, everyone is arguing about whether this is a hate thread or not. I thought this was a thread to look for costumes that wouldn't desynch wifi. I, for one, would like this, because I like to use Mr. L, and I wouldn't want my build desynching.

 

[Pin Clock]

Stop, wait. From what I've observed, everyone is arguing about whether this is a hate thread or not. I thought this was a thread to look for costumes that wouldn't desynch wifi. I, for one, would like this, because I like to use Mr. L, and I wouldn't want my build desynching.

Dress Luigi in 4.0f won't desynch wifi, because both players would have it. Unaltered builds are highly recommended for online play anyways.

 

[Destructo]

I meant replacements that wouldn't desynch, but your arguement still stands.

 

[Darxmarx]

I meant replacements that wouldn't desynch, but your arguement still stands.

A costume desynchs wifi when one person has it and the other person doesn't when the costume actually modifies the bones or PSA effects of the character. For example, if someone was to make a custom Olimar skin that removes the light coming from his original helmet model, that would desynch wifi because the bone prompting the light to appear would be removed.

Also I can confirm that Mr. L does not desynch wifi (as long as you don't make any PSA changes) because I use that costume online myself. While there are model changes, none of the bones or PSA elements were edited, making Mr. L wifi-safe.

 

[Bent 00]

Stop, wait. From what I've observed, everyone is arguing about whether this is a hate thread or not. I thought this was a thread to look for costumes that wouldn't desynch wifi. I, for one, would like this, because I like to use Mr. L, and I wouldn't want my build desynching.

Congratulations! You understood the point of this thread and didn't bring any unnecessary arguments in with you. Thanks.

A costume desynchs wifi when one person has it and the other person doesn't when the costume actually modifies the bones or PSA effects of the character. For example, if someone was to make a custom Olimar skin that removes the light coming from his original helmet model, that would desynch wifi because the bone prompting the light to appear would be removed.

Also I can confirm that Mr. L does not desynch wifi (as long as you don't make any PSA changes) because I use that costume online myself. While there are model changes, none of the bones or PSA elements were edited, making Mr. L wifi-safe.

The question is: Does Drag Luigi have any edited bones or PSA elements?

If a player with vanilla 4.0f (playing as Drag Luigi) plays against someone with 4.0f + this patch (playing as Mr. L) online, will they desync?