Captain Falcon's usmash and Falcon Punch

[Thor]

@Pin Clock because I don't know the Falcon person.

I have two suggestions about these moves [and unlike with uthrow uair on Fox I'm not nearly as intent on wanting these in], but... I'll just throw them out.

- Create a 64 animation for Falcon's usmash, and make it like 64.
- Remove the super taunt [and multi-hit on normal punch], give the normal Falcon Punch 64 speed [and animation and power?], and [if same animation] have the reversal be same speed where he goes to standing up, leaning back, and delivering [and maybe keep reversal with multi-hit???].

My reasoning:
- 64 usmash is a nice combo starter/extender [Falcon's all about combos], a good OoS option potentially [he really doesn't have one right now], and it looks cool.
- 64 Falcon Punch is amazing, looks cool, is a throwback, and I know sometimes people get mad when they get hit by ultrataunt punch [for some reason people I play with find it lame], so if it were just made better overall, it would be cooler [they've said as much]. The move would also be slightly more useful and less obnoxious [it does 44%, and basically is a Warlock Punch beyond 50 percent, but this would differentiate them more]. Also once in a while people somehow fall out of the Falcon Punch which leaves me sad that I didn't get the strong hit.
- Also more sacred combos [usmash -> knee -> Falcon punch].

Potential problems:
- This is possibly too big a buff [usmash -> knee -> Falcon punch].
- It might make him slightly more like Ganondorf, at least for usmash [similar movestyle, one hitbox]
- Falcon punch might be "too good"
- new animations

Resolutions to those problems:
- It's not that terrible a buff, could be given a slight angle adjustment [so that you can DI it super far away if you DI in front of him, so knee struggles to connect except maybe at high percents]. I think he also could use a bit more stage presence and a fast smash and this would help.
- Falcon punch is still better for a difference, and it also makes it more of a combo move [whereas Falcon usmash is kind of just a weaker kill move]. We could also make Ganondorf usmash 2 hits to reinforce his amazing power [though more new animations].
- ultrataunt falcon punch would still be faster, so this makes it more balanced overall, and more of a useful move without being broken [in my opinion]. Also, I'm pretty sure Falcon Punch being "too good" is about the most Minus-y thing imaginable.
- Don't do this right away, just make animations over time [if possible] - people have made new characters, so I'm sure it would only take like a month for the new animations [if that] if people put in time, and the gameplay reward would be immense. I'm not saying add this to 4.0, but down the line this would be cool.

I feel like this would make Falcon even more fun to play and would make him feel more Minusy while addressing secondary flaws he has [primary being recovery of course]. I'd imagine balance is still a concern [tragic] but I hope the backroom will at least consider this proposal. If it's off the table, as many reasons why it won't be considered as possible would be appreciated, so I can understand this hypothetical "no" as much as possible.

 

[Darxmarx]

Zeus actually made a Smash 64 Falcon Usmash animation, and it's beautiful. If possible and willing to, the Minus BR could ask the Zeus guys about it.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I've already tried getting them to do exactly what this topic requests. I wanted old pawnch because it was faster and hit hard for a single strike. I also wanted his 64 fsmash to try and make him more himself than Dorf. They didn't seem willing to do this for reasons.

 

[NEWB]

Sounds cool to me.

 

[Kien]

I would like for Falcon to play more similarly to his N64 incarnation, but not for the sake of making him better. I honestly think he's up there with the best so buffing him would be really bad for the rest of the cast.

 

[Mawootad]

Well buffing falcon is probably a bad idea like Kien said and usmash requires multiple brand new animations to even test, so at best it would be a maybe.

 

[Thor]

Well buffing falcon is probably a bad idea like Kien said and usmash requires multiple brand new animations to even test, so at best it would be a maybe.

Would even just buffed Falcon Punch [to be faster but single 20% hit] be too much? To be honest, that's what I'd most love to see... the usmash idea is just one that came to me and I thought would look cool [and as Darx mentioned, Zeus has one...].

Or did the "power curve increase" not affect Falcon?

 

[Mawootad]

I'm not a balance expert but I believe that the power curve increase does not (hugely) affect Falcon as he's above the old power curve. If you want more info ask during the livestream tomorrow and we should be able to give a more in depth answer.

 

[Bent 00]

Resident Falcon Fanatic here. I really like the Falcon Punch and Instant Falcon Punch as-is. It could link into the final hit a bit better.

I'd give the proposed 64 Up Smash a chance, since the reduced hitbox on current Up Smash reduced its effectiveness a lot. It would be a good combo-starter and out-of-shield option. I'll try out Zeus Falcon's Up Smash...

64 F-Smash would be too similar to Falcon's current F-Tilt. Keep the Elbow Smash.

DO NOT change 'Dorf's Up Smash, it's literally Perfect as-is.

 

[Darxmarx]

I'd give the proposed 64 Up Smash a chance, since the reduced hitbox on current Up Smash reduced its effectiveness a lot. It would be a good combo-starter and out-of-shield option. I'll try out Zeus Falcon's Up Smash...

Remember that the 64 Usmash is only activated when you perform the special taunt. IIRC it is activated the same way as the Instant Pawnch in Minus.

 

[Greatest_Aether]

Yeah, IMO Falcon feels perfect already. Maybe a tiny change here and there, but nothing major.

 

[Kien]

Just wanna state that Falcon Punch can't be modified and keep the Falcon gfx due to some special gfx animation in his etc or something like that... while it is entirely possible to edit, in the end it wouldn't be worth the time and effort.

 

[Greatest_Aether]

Just wanna state that Falcon Punch can't be modified and keep the Falcon gfx due to some special gfx animation in his etc or something like that... while it is entirely possible to edit, in the end it wouldn't be worth the time and effort.

That's why the Fast Falcon Punch has no Falcon graphics, right?

 

[Pin Clock]

That's why the Fast Falcon Punch has no Falcon graphics, right?

Correct. His GFX strictly come out only if the PAWNCH speed is exactly the same. The same happens with Kirby when he copies Falcon.

There isn't really a specified reason for this, but our guess is "Because Brawl."

 

[NEWB]

lol there is nothing wrong with that reasoning.

 

[Greatest_Aether]

Can't argue with dat

 

[Bent 00]

Yeah, IMO Falcon feels perfect already. Maybe a tiny change here and there, but nothing major.

Agreed. The only small tweaks I'd like to see are...

- Falcon Punch links into final hit better
- Side Taunt Cancel moved from Frame 99 to 90
- Secret Taunt made easier to execute, like Lucario's

Things I'm still considering:

- Possible 64 Up Smash? Falcon does need a good OoS move. Either that or the return of the vBrawl-size hitbox; current Up Smash is lacking.
- I still feel like Down Taunt should have some armor and/or fire resistance. Ganondorf's Down Taunt makes him invincible.
- Should Falcon's horizontal momentum halt (or just be reduced) at the end of aerial Raptor Boost? It occasionally causes a suicide by carrying Falcon underneath the stage.
- Was moving the Rapid Jab to Z really the best idea? I used to Jab > Jab > Grab (Z) a lot, but now that usually ends up in a Rapid Jab, when I would have preferred a grab. Perhaps the Rapid Jab window could be pushed back a few frames? Personally, I rarely triggered Rapid Jab by accident back when it wasn't confined to Z.

 

[Pin Clock]

- Secret Taunt made easier to execute, like Lucario's

Actually, Falcon's secret taunt has the same window of input frames as Lucario's does, if not more.

 

[Bent 00]

Actually, Falcon's secret taunt has the same window of input frames as Lucario's does, if not more.

Hm. I don't know technically why, but Falcon's Secret Taunt has always felt a bit harder to execute than Lucario's, to me.

Try mapping Up Taunt or Down Taunt to GC X (leaving the other one on the D-Pad), and try to do Lucario's Ultra Taunt. Now try the same with Falcon. Lucario's is easier to pull off this way, while Falcon's is more unreliable this way; it's better to just jam Up and Down on the D-Pad.

Also, sometimes Falcon will just stutter in place if your timing is off. Lucario doesn't have this problem.

It's a very minor issue.

 

[Neville]

One thing we have to think about if we want to change Falcon's uSmash to its 64 iteration is that you can usmash out of Falcon kick. And smash64 uSmash out of Minus Falcon kick is stupid.

 

[Gold_TSG]

64 F-Smash would be too similar to Falcon's current F-Tilt. Keep the Elbow Smash.

Funny how that didn't matter since that's how it was in 64. If it didn't matter then, it shouldn't matter now.


Anywho, I'm still voting for trying to make his pawnch closer to his 64 version, simply because it feels like it'd make him more... Mobile? The current punch, while powerful and such, just takes too long to fully execute because of the hitlag. I'd prefer seeing it just a single, hard hit.
I'd be up for seeing a new usmash on him to relive the glory days of Falcon before he got a clone.

 

[Thor]

One thing we have to think about if we want to change Falcon's uSmash to its 64 iteration is that you can usmash out of Falcon kick. And smash64 uSmash out of Minus Falcon kick is stupid.

Current usmash out of Falcon Kick is stupid too, now that the offset was reduced. Also Falcon Kick is very punishable [I played another Falcon main who's not into Minus anymore (he does Smash 4) and he'd punish almost all my Falcon Kicks in the ditto - I punished a fair number of his too, and smart use of it became relegated to tech-chasing and punishing commitments].

- Was moving the Rapid Jab to Z really the best idea? I used to Jab > Jab > Grab (Z) a lot, but now that usually ends up in a Rapid Jab, when I would have preferred a grab. Perhaps the Rapid Jab window could be pushed back a few frames? Personally, I rarely triggered Rapid Jab by accident back when it wasn't confined to Z.

This may be infeasible for various reasons, but could the rapid jab be remapped to B? Then you could jab jab grab, jab jab jab, and jab jab rapid jab easily. There might be some "BUT JAB JAB FALCON KICK/RAPTOR BOOST", but that's just dumb [and easily shieldable], and jab jab grab is just as fine as his command grab. And no one does jab jab Falcon Punch [unless they're intentionally trying to get hit].

Hm. I don't know technically why, but Falcon's Secret Taunt has always felt a bit harder to execute than Lucario's, to me.

Try mapping Up Taunt or Down Taunt to GC X (leaving the other one on the D-Pad), and try to do Lucario's Ultra Taunt. Now try the same with Falcon. Lucario's is easier to pull off this way, while Falcon's is more unreliable this way; it's better to just jam Up and Down on the D-Pad.

Also, sometimes Falcon will just stutter in place if your timing is off. Lucario doesn't have this problem.

It's a very minor issue.

I can do Falcon's ultrataunt almost 100% of the time by sliding my right hand down to the dtaunt so that I rapidly tap back and forth utaunt dtaunt utaunt. If you struggle to do it with some other method, I'd recommend trying this method - I find it easy and fast.

EDIT: Would find it funny if the salute had super armor, Falcon being too manly to even flinch in the face of whatever he's doing while he salutes the crowd [he is the ultimate crowd-pleaser, and can't look like he's in pain mid-salute, can he?].

 

[Mawootad]

I'm pretty sure putting Rapid Jab instead of Gentleman on z does nothing to change CF's ability to do jab jab grab. I don't believe the frames that resulted in doing another jab were changed.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Falcon shouldn't have armor on his salute taunt. Depending on the direction he's facing, it's either faster or slower, and IIRC, the backwards version can pretty much chain into itself, meaning he could armor through anything without worry.

 

[Thor]

Falcon shouldn't have armor on his salute taunt. Depending on the direction he's facing, it's either faster or slower, and IIRC, the backwards version can pretty much chain into itself, meaning he could armor through anything without worry.

True, grabs, but still true.

Just wanna state that Falcon Punch can't be modified and keep the Falcon gfx due to some special gfx animation in his etc or something like that... while it is entirely possible to edit, in the end it wouldn't be worth the time and effort.

I understand what you mean here, but I had an idea.. what if we make a 64-esque animation and attach it separately? Is this possible??? Even to just the ultrataunt version [if no changes happen]? Because then we could either do the single strong hit with a cool huge Falcon, or we could at least attach GFX to the fast version...