Would you like Ike to be restored to his MAX 1.01 self?

[Bent 00]

In the Brawl Minus MAX 3.3 update, Ike's No Sympathy Mode has been made entirely inferior to his MAX 1.01 setup. No Sympathy Mode charges up on its own now, but it takes a long time to activate -- in a 1v1, Ike should have taken 1.5 to 2 stocks from an average opponent by the time he reaches 150% sword damage. That means he'll only get to use No Sympathy Mode once, maybe twice, per standard match. And even then, it's too easy for Ike's foe to bait out his Super Counter, making him waste it. It should at least be required that you press the B button after landing a No Sympathy Counter in order to execute the Super Counter, or Flourish. Having it so that a successful N.S.M. Counter goes straight into the Super Counter creates this unfortunate scenario: Ike is finally in N.S.M., and his opponent knows not to get close until Ike wastes his Super Counter. The foe will stay at range and spam projectiles, because what's Ike going to do about it? He and Marth are weak to projectile spam, having only Counter to deflect them -- but if Ike Counters a projectile in N.S.M., he'll just waste his charge. So, Ike is forced to enter N.S.M. even if his player doesn't want to, and this makes him even more weak against ranged attacks. His healing Aether and the heat wave added to F-Air aren't enough to compensate for Ike damaging himself with every outranged attack, so he will likely waste N.S.M. on purpose (or cancel it via Down Taunt) just to stop hurting himself and get his standard Counter back.

There were multiple benefits to charging N.S.M. via holding Eruption:
- Ike had ample time to charge up fully after most K.O.s.
- The timing was just close enough to bait foes into coming after Ike, something he needed against evasive opponents. Now Ike must always play aggressively.
- If Ike whiffed the initial hit of N.S.M. Counter, he didn't have to waste his charge; Ike would only use up his N.S.M. power when his player wanted to, and pressed B to trigger Eruption.
- It was great being able to carry around a fully-charged Eruption, ready for use any moment.
- The Ike player did not have to ever use N.S.M. if he or she didn't want to.

I know that people were complaining that Ike's old N.S.M. was too powerful, but now it's been nerfed far too much. It should be optional to activate, and it should never make Ike's overall options worse in any scenario. N.S.M. is supposed to be a reward for Ike, not a hindrance. If it had to be nerfed, you should have just weakened N.S.M. Eruption, and/or made it so Ike's charge is lost when he is K.O.ed.

Ike is now too easy to read and punish with these changes. He can't effectively bait anymore without the ability to punish afterward. Who else wants to see Ike restored to his previous Minus MAX 1.01 self? Please vote and post your thoughts in this topic.

If you're unfamiliar with MAX 1.01 Ike, and would like to compare him to his MAX 3.3 self, here is his MAX 1.01 .pac file. Simply navigate to SD / Private / Wii / App / RSBE / pf / fighter / Ike, rename the MAX 3.3 FitIke.pac file, and place this file in that folder. Remember to undo this change if you want to play online, or you will desync from players with the unmodified MAX 3.3 pack.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I'm gonna be honest. I did like the storing factor more. I still have to test the newest version, but I still like the idea of the old. An improvement to that would be, instead of just getting the charge at full eruption, it could take like 3% self damage to trigger the storage state. That way it still takes more time to charge reliably, but maintains practical, controlled use.

 

[WastedCrits]

I like this change to No Sympathy mode because it feels like a reward for playing aggressively, instead of hoping you can get it in before your opponent respawns and stops you. It feels like an improvement against projectile spammers, because it was near impossible to charge up against someone who knew to throw out a fireball/laser/whatever as soon as they spawned to stop you, whereas now, you are guaranteed to get it sometime during any fight, at least once, usually twice. Also, before, getting No Sympathy charged felt like a complete change of flow to how I like to play Ike, aggressively and hi-pressure. However, the flourish counter as-is feels terrible, the hits don't seem to link at all, and I don't think it should take him out of NS mode automatically.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I like aggressive play as well, but when the gfx on the sword don't consistently go away upon leaving NSM, it makes it hard to keep track of. As is, it has a habit of lingering (if only the sword glow), making it only noticeable once you start taking self-damage.

 

[Glyph]

NSM currently takes too long to charge, I do agree there. That being said, the previous version was really problematic for Ike as it really was just....better. All the time. Having counter->eruption at will gave Ike kills at unfairly low percentages, as well as likely killing them off the top which left him to charge it up again while they died. Removing his ability to charge into it at will forces people to focus on IKE, not counter->eruption. Its still available, but you'll have to actually do skillful things with Ike rather than turn on your better mode and swing your sword around.

I also agree that forcing Ike into using his Eruption combo off of counter deserves some looking at, but I can't speak for the other devs on that. Otherwise, its certainly a 'nerf' to Ike in that you have to play him more around the rest of his kit, which I find a very healthy change to his design.

 

[Bent 00]

So nerf Eruption then, not the whole mode. I suggested reducing its power or making Ike lose his charge if he's KO'ed.

 

[Thor]

If someone wants to tell me that Ike was way too good in the old build, okay, but I haven't really seen that - there was definitely a lot of cheese involved in Counter to Eruption (Actually just removing counter -> eruption and replacing it with cancels into tilts or grab would probably be good enough), but I don't think Ike was necessarily so good he needed this nerf (it's not like Lucario having insta-counter and other stuff at any percent... Ike was never overpowered or invalidated parts of the cast, as far as I know - he just made life hell when Eruption was charged). I vote for 1.01 Ike, except no Counter -> Eruption but rather Counter-> tilt or grab, and also keep Aether's healing at all times (it's such a minor buff, but it's funny vs Dedede's Waddle Dees, and Ike has a rough time vs Dedede in my opinion). This would reduce Eruption/Counter-centric play while still making Eruption a powerful finisher.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I still like the idea of using the charge/store mechanic, with that added bit to take longer to get into NSM to begin with. Truly, the only issue previously was that it cancelled into eruption, which could have easily been solved without changing everything like it has been. Yes, he was getting charges too often, but the idea I threw out would at least make it so he can't just get NSM up after a kill so quickly and easily.

 

[justadood]

If someone wants to tell me that Ike was way too good in the old build, okay, but I haven't really seen that - there was definitely a lot of cheese involved in Counter to Eruption (Actually just removing counter -> eruption and replacing it with cancels into tilts or grab would probably be good enough), but I don't think Ike was necessarily so good he needed this nerf (it's not like Lucario having insta-counter and other stuff at any percent... Ike was never overpowered or invalidated parts of the cast, as far as I know - he just made life hell when Eruption was charged). I vote for 1.01 Ike, except no Counter -> Eruption but rather Counter-> tilt or grab, and also keep Aether's healing at all times (it's such a minor buff, but it's funny vs Dedede's Waddle Dees, and Ike has a rough time vs Dedede in my opinion). This would reduce Eruption/Counter-centric play while still making Eruption a powerful finisher.

I think i agree with everything here. maybe as a bonus, instead of eruption, if B is pressed during NS counter, it goes into flourish and uses the charge, or has a cost of health or something... or maybe remove NS counter's original slow-mo effect so you have to be quick to cancel into flourish or tilts or grabs...?

 

[NEWB]

I went ahead and cast my vote for I like how they did in 3.3, but to adjust it a bit, I think I agree that flourish shouldn't trigger every counter, and that perhaps lower the points required to go into NS be enough to ensure that he uses NS twice per match, but no more. I'm not sure what to do with flourish.

Eruption should also be changed somehow. Maybe grant eruption more range of it is fully charged. As is, it is now a useless move.

 

[WastedCrits]

I agree that the % should be lower, maybe 100%? As for eruption, what if it exploded the ground under the opponent(avoidable by being in air), instead of Ike? It would allow him to pressure his opponent to come to him, like NS charging did before. Either that, or allowing him to store a charge, would make the move much more viable.

 

[Thor]

I say Eruption should count for triple NSM points, and the third hit of jab counts double for NSM points. I also support the % being lower, at about 100% sword-damage. This would make it easier, and boost the viability of Eruption (uncharged still gives you like 30 NSM points then - definitely worth it in my opinion).

Also, if it isn't the case now, make Aether charge NSM mode - it doesn't currently seem to do so.

I have suggested other changes elsewhere, but at this point, just these would make me happy for now.

 

[Lucis Perficio]

Eruption should definitely not be weakened. lol It's like one of Ike's best knockback scaling moves besides fsmash, uair, bair, and dsmash.