Why the Low Ledge-grab Invincibility?

[Turk Injaydii]

I've noticed that Minus grants by far the least amount of invincibility upon grabbing ledge. Why is this? Idk if it's even half a second, and it leads to some pretty lame KOs. For instance, I main Bowser. If I want to be a dick, I can just down be the ledge every time my opponent is trying to get back to stage. And I'm sure Link/Falcon can get tons of super-low percent Dtilt/UpTilt kills once they get the timing down.

If its something that was done to make matches go by faster, it's entirely unneeded. Melee has much more ledge-grab invincibility and we all know how well it's doing, lol. Would this be something you all would consider addressing in 4.0's final version?

 

[Neville]

Ledge invincibility is slightly more than a quarter of a second. This leads to characters with slower ledge options to literally be forced to take hits at the ledge as long as their opponent isn't a potato.

 

[Thor]

The design is to avoid ledge-hogging. Frankly, I'm convinced most recoveries in Minus are more than potent enough that if you get ledge-hogged, you still got handily outplayed, and they earned that KO.

I'd like to see the timer on it go up myself. It doesn't need to be as long as Smash 4 or even Melee, but if it could go up to maybe 25 frames, that would be great.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

Ledge invincibility is slightly more than a quarter of a second. This leads to characters with slower ledge options to literally be forced to take hits at the ledge as long as their opponent isn't a potato.

Glad I'm not the only one that feels this way. Its a big problem with the game, imo. Most folks in my scene are new to the game, so they don't try to exploit due to ignorance. But its definitely something that needs to be increased.

The design is to avoid ledge-hogging. Frankly, I'm convinced most recoveries in Minus are more than potent enough that if you get ledge-hogged, you still got handily outplayed, and they earned that KO.

I'd like to see the timer on it go up myself. It doesn't need to be as long as Smash 4 or even Melee, but if it could go up to maybe 25 frames, that would be great.

Melee has been highly popular for 15 years now and will even be aired on ESPN at some point in the near future (WOOT!). Nothing wrong with implementing ledge-invincibility that is as long as Melee's.

But at this point, I'd be thankful for just SOME kind of increase. Right now, it may as well not even exist.

 

[Thor]

Glad I'm not the only one that feels this way. Its a big problem with the game, imo. Most folks in my scene are new to the game, so they don't try to exploit due to ignorance. But its definitely something that needs to be increased.



Melee has been highly popular for 15 years now and will even be aired on ESPN at some point in the near future (WOOT!). Nothing wrong with implementing ledge-invincibility that is as long as Melee's.

But at this point, I'd be thankful for just SOME kind of increase. Right now, it may as well not even exist.

I am not stating I take issue with ledge-hogging (as someone who frequently enters tournaments for Melee/PM/Smash 4 I ledgehog people myself when possible), but rather what the development team has previously stated (that they dislike ledgehogging). I am all in favor of making ledge invincibility like Melee (or even between Melee and Brawl), but I am not in charge. I was only attempting to state why things are as they are and offer a compromise (25 actionable frames of invincibility from the ledge).

 

[Mawootad]

I think at one point I mentioned that ledge invincibility being either too high or too low makes edge guards boring and uninteractive, but that doesn't mean we'd dismiss modifying ledge invincibility on principle. Also, the real reason I'd suspect ledge invincibility was lowered was to weaken planking, which was a huge deal in Brawl.

 

[Thor]

I think at one point I mentioned that ledge invincibility being either too high or too low makes edge guards boring and uninteractive, but that doesn't mean we'd dismiss modifying ledge invincibility on principle. Also, the real reason I'd suspect ledge invincibility was lowered was to weaken planking, which was a huge deal in Brawl.

If planking is the issue, would it instead be possible to modify the ledge-regrab rate? If the ledge leaves you invulnerable for 45 frames, but you can't grab it for 60 once letting go, you can't plank.

Now, I know that would bring the ledge-hogging question back, but those numbers are samples. Would the dev team be more willing to make ledges give more invincibility if they also reduce the ability to regrab ledges quickly?

P.S: One idea I considered but never really thought was worth discussing [mainly for difficulty of execution] would be that ledges give the same invincibility, with a super armor state where you don't take KB for the next however many frames [say armor so that I-frames + armor = Melee ledge I-frames] that also causes you to be knocked off the ledge [but no KB] if you get hit? It's likely nearly impossible to code, or needlessly complicated, but it would stop the exploitation of silly stage spikes due to how ledges + lag work [or even just missing a buffer slightly], while avoiding the ledge-hogging issue.

 

[Mawootad]

I don't know if planking is actually an issue. I'm just saying I think that's why it was changed.

 

[owo]

Planking was only an issue in brawl since metaknight could cover his ledgedrop with multiple disjointed up-airs, but in minus many characters have long ranged options that can sweep or even poke through the ledge.

I am fine with the ledge invincibility frame count but wouldn't mind if it were increased. I would rather have more invincibility frames upon respawn instead. The way it is now is disadvantageous to the player spawning in since they are vulnerable to attacks before they have reached the ground (except for stages with high platforms like battlefield). This allows them to get caught in traps like stealth rocks, explosives or even well timed lingering hitboxes like a falcon punch or superarmor bowser fsmash. The low invinci-frames also prevent the player spawning in to apply pressure since they are caught up in trying to escape the opponent's.