Uthrow uair?

Discussion in 'Fox McCloud' started by Thor, Mar 5, 2015.

  1. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    @Pin Clock I don't know who the Fox coder is so I'm just tagging you for this.

    In Melee I can uthrow uair Puff reasonably easily [I don't play Melee Fox, but I can do this much]. I can also do it to a variety of other characters [another Fox at very high percents, to Link, etc.]. I can't for the life of me seem to pull this maneuver off in Minus though.

    So, first and foremost, is uthrow uair a true combo in Minus? It certainly does not feel like it [specifically on Puff, though I can't seem to do it against others either].

    If it not longer combos, is this intentional? If Fox was designed to not CG himself with uthrow and thus endlag [or something] was added, this explains the clunkiness of uthrow, but I feel like uthrow uair, a staple Melee Fox combo, fits on our version of Fox. I also have two ideas...

    A) Simply make uthrow less laggy. Downside is that Fox can CG himself, but this is actually somewhat fitting as Fox CGing himself is somewhat of a Melee staple and would be hilarious [he'd be able to CG other spacies too, but I think that's an acceptable trade-off to be honest].

    B) Add a jump-cancel to uthrow. This would avoid letting him CG himself/others, and let him get the uthrow uair. I wouldn't mind seeing the uthrow be JC-able even before lasers come out [that is, you could JC late for laser damage or just jump immediately after the uthrow to get the uair quickly].

    Some response [to the effect of "get better", "yes it's coming back", "no it's not coming back and here's why"] would be appreciated.
     
  2. Greatest_Aether

    Greatest_Aether Forum Reg of sorts

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  3. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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    What is this, Melee? Play Minus more and stop worrying about Melee.
     
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  4. Mawootad

    Mawootad Minus Backroom

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    It seems weird that Fox can't do one of his most iconic combos in Minus, I'll see what we can do about that.
     
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  5. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    It's not that I need everything to match Melee, but what Mawootad said, and also the fact that if you can't uthrow uair, the throw is nearly useless. It's not a combo throw if you can't uthrow uair [or any other aerial] and it is then outclassed entirely by bthrow [with decent KB, good stage positioning, and potential for followups at low percent]. Uthrow uair is super SDIable [if it's really a problem they can make uair easier to SDI], but as it stands, fthrow is positioning/high percent KOs, bthrow is the same, dthrow is tech-chasing and a meteor on the edge [or being obnoxious in high lag via shine/jab resets or usmash], and uthrow is just bad [I'd even say worse than Falco's, and most people know my thoughts on that throw].

    If there was some combo I'm missing [like if there was some dumb Firefox cancel or something], then ok, I understand what the throw does... but as of now, the move seems almost literally useless [at low percents you can maybe utilt or usmash fastfallers?] People seem to break out of hitstun too fast to allow you to jump at uair at any percents, and it doesn't exactly do a lot of damage, so the throw as it stands is just pretty bad.
     
  6. Doqtor Kirby

    Doqtor Kirby Resident Design Nitpicker Minus Backroom

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    Last I checked on some chars uthrow usmash works and is more powerful.
     
  7. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    That literally only works on fastfallers, and I don't know if it actually works at KO percents [it might]. I'd still like to see uthrow uair back in.
     
  8. Neville

    Neville GG M8s Minus Backroom

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    Every character can jump out of uthrow at the apex of the throw at anything higher than like 40%
     
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  9. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    Fox is designed to be a reimagining of his melee moveset. That's what it said on one of hic character pages. Maybe that one from Tumblir??? I can swear I remember reading that. If this is a concept and by design, he should probably be able to do that. I mean, I don't know if he is missing other melee tricks.

    Maybe it doesn't work in minus because the gravity isn't the same as melee's?
     
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  10. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    I think this is exactly the issue, which is why I suggested a JC.

    He's not missing other tricks that I can think of besides CGing [which was intentionally removed, although Kirby's dthrow can CG some characters of the cast to a limited degree, and some other characters can only break out of some "CGs" in very specific ways, like Yoshi nair], and even if he's missing other tricks, he has new cool ones too [like SHL strong nair in the same SH].
     
  11. Mawootad

    Mawootad Minus Backroom

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    So I haven't actually don't the coding required to confirm this, but you may not want to get super hyped since fox can short hop waveland very quickly and easily out of up throw. That means a jump cancel can be at most 4-5 frames earlier than the first frame that prevents the chain grab, which would only make the combo only slightly more feasible.
     
  12. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    How does u throw chain grab? Does it not send people high enough that it needed those extra frames of reference ns lag to prevent it?
     
  13. Mawootad

    Mawootad Minus Backroom

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    Judging from how it works on wolf I'd say it would chain grab if it was significantly faster.
     
  14. Neville

    Neville GG M8s Minus Backroom

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    What if it had a higher base knockback and a small knockback growth curve?
     
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  15. Mawootad

    Mawootad Minus Backroom

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    Fox is currently in a very good position balance wise and we really do not want to tweak him any more than we have to; uthrow to uair is cool but making changes to the throw arc isn't exactly a minor thing.
     
  16. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    Fox being able to CG one character isn't a problem, unless you're also revamping Kirby dthrow since he can CG a large chunk of the cast in the right percent range [from my experience].

    I'm also unclear on how making the throw's BKB a little higher to avoid the CG is an issue, but I guess I'm not a dev...
     
  17. Neville

    Neville GG M8s Minus Backroom

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    Have you seen my sig?
     
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  18. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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    100% fair. Totally legit. Not broken at all. No complaints. This is definitely not sarcasm.
     
  19. Greatest_Aether

    Greatest_Aether Forum Reg of sorts

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    You're never going to let me live that down, are you?
     
  20. Neville

    Neville GG M8s Minus Backroom

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  21. Greatest_Aether

    Greatest_Aether Forum Reg of sorts

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    Although, I will admit that it was impressive that you did that online under lag....
     
  22. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    If this were serious, I'd be in agreement. Many characters have kill throws outright or automatic throw followups from a throw... Fox doesn't [he has a tech-chase with dthrow at best]. Then I think dair is less safe on shield than in Melee [and it may not even be safe on shield there... or else Toph just can't L-cancel, since Borp shieldgrabbed him multiple times out of a drill] and I don't think his shine is even safe on shield either EVEN if immediately jump-cancelled, PLUS I'm pretty sure double-shining doesn't work properly and neither does multishining [though I don't think they need to]. Fox's usmash is strong, but... so are other character KO moves, many of which are even faster/safer or just so much stronger.

    Fox feels even more glass-cannon-y than Jigglypuff in Melee did to me. And you also have to force the opponent to miss a tech to do the thing in MS's sig, which isn't the easiest thing to force [or if you're not trying to force it, you have to react extraordinarily quickly].

    Also he doesn't have broken firefox, which wasn't actually really that broken since the amount of times you'd hit with the startup in a serious 1v1 is approximately zero, but it was just hilarious to look at doing to CPUs. Ah well...
     
  23. Neville

    Neville GG M8s Minus Backroom

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    You don't have to make the opponent miss a tech to waveshine them. The distance you go while wavedashing is more important than in Melee however.
     
  24. Mawootad

    Mawootad Minus Backroom

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    I'd like to point out that basically everyone in Minus can do crazy things.
     
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  25. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    Also, isn't that in mega's sig from project m? Or did you rip the stock icons from project m?

    Looking more closely, I can see that is minus.
     

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