The state and future of Brawl Minus

[Turk Injaydii]

Before reading this, please understand that everything I say stems from a passion for this game and worry about its future. I am trying to come across as respectful as possible, but I do use caps for emphasis at various points throughout; EMPHASIS, nothing more and nothing less. I apologize if anything is interpreted in a negative light because that is not my intention. *deep breath* Now lets get started...

Since becoming an active member of this community, I've developed a love for this game and learned some things about the players and Minus Dev Team (MDT). Most of it is good, but there are some alarming things that make me worry that this game won't ever grow into what it could. I'm going to address three issues that are the most alarming: (1) I've only been active for approximately 1 month's time, and already witnessed 2 of the community's most active members get banned, (2) The presence of moves and characteristics that should be adjusted for the benefit of competitive play [assuming that is the direction Minus wants to go. After all, if the game was only meant to be played casually, there would be no need for adjusting anything as it is 4.0b outside of game breaking glitches], (3) Close-minded and distorted thinking about what Minus is and what it could become.

(1) I will not state who was banned since it is against forum rules, but most of you know who I'm referring to at the date of this message's conception. The Minus community is a small one. So small, that many members of the Smash community have never heard of it; despite the fact that the game is 6 years old. So, WHY ON EARTH would you ban individuals who care about this game enough to become upset when something isn't handled the way they think it should be and/or vocalize their opinions about various issues with the game? Again, your fan base is TINY. The last thing you should think about doing is pushing away players who have a passion for what you are trying to do and have the gusto to let you know when you're doing something that could be handled in a better way. If you have a disagreement with another player, talk it out like an adult. Don't get vulgar, don't get petty, just be respectful and hear their opinions. At the end of that conversation, you may still have disagreements and may still despise each other. But as long as that person isn't flaming others here on the forums, posting vulgarities, or breaking other forum rules, just leave them be. So what if the member in question talks about the same things for 2 years in a forum thread? NO ONE CARES. I literally only found out about things like that when I went looking for it or because others told me about it. If an interested player is on here to inquire about your game, I promise you they're just going to skim past anything that isn't related to what they're looking for; as anyone does when there searching for information.

(2) Minus has throws that meteor, a move that charges for 2 seconds then OHKO's whatever it hits, characters than can use their side special an infinite amount of times per air time, etc. These need adjusting. If you don't think that as a development team, then you do not take competitive play seriously. I don't care if meteor throws can be meteor cancelled or DI'd. Do you know why? Because players are HUMAN. That means in addition to skill being a factor at high level play, so is HUMAN ERROR. An experienced player may be near perfect and meteor cancel 99 out of every 100 meteors he's hit with, but what about that 1 time he misses it? What if that is was his tournament stock in Grand Finals and he made an error in meteor canceling Captain Falcon's Bthrow on ledge while he only had 15%, and that tournament just ended on an EXTREMELY anticlimactic note? No competitor wants to lose that way, win that way, or watch a set that ends that way. I could go on about additional aspects of Minus that need to be removed, but you get the idea. There are things in Minus that need to GO if you want more of the Smash scene to take you seriously [I hope that is the case, why else work so hard on this game or free?]

(3) This is something that seems to be present in the players and the developers. As for the players...many players of Melee, PM, and Smash 4 view Minus negatively and/or don't take it seriously. They see things some of the Minus characters can do and write the game off as a jankfest that shouldn't be considered for competitive play. That is partly due to their own close-mindedness. They see what a character can do in Minus having their usual Smash game as a reference, and think it is absurd. Many things would be absurd if they were in another Smash, but they're not--that was said to defend the good things in Minus. HOWEVER, there are definitely things that need to be removed if you want to be taken seriously; see section 2.

As for the developers, I have heard some disgruntling things. For instance, the silly notion that you can't attempt something Project M tried because you don't want to be viewed as "copycats" or "vultures." ... NEWS FLASH: YOU'RE ALL VULTURES. The PMDT and the MDT have taken a game that Sakurai and his team poured their hearts and souls into and warped it into something COMPLETELY different without having any permission from him or Nintendo. Think he ever wanted to see Lucario wavedash and have his aura mechanic overhauled? NOPE. Think he ever wanted to see Bowser lose his fire breath and have it replaced with a chase grab that leads into a pile driver? YOU BET HE DIDN'T. But the PMDT and MDT did it any way. AND WE LOVE IT!!!! So why let anything hold you back? Who cares if PM already tried something. It's not like much of what they did was an original idea to begin with...PM= Project MELEE. They just ripped off another game... Ivysaur has Solarbeam? Oh, you mean the most iconic Grass type move of the Pokemon series? Sure that took a lot of effort to think of... They wanted to put in Knuckles, Lyn, and Isaac? That's because fans from their respective franchises have been SCREAMING for their inclusion in a Smash title for years!

To address additional distorted thinking, it seems somethings in Minus have remained strictly because they were created. WP is a useless gimmick. Meteor throws should be edited, etc. If something was made and you have multiple people saying similar things, you may want to adjust it. Set aside your attachments and do what's best for Minus.

(Closing)
Again, this is being posted because I am passionate about this game and want to see it flourish. This game is special. Since introducing this game to my local scene, I've had players from PM, Melee, Smash 4, and even Rivals of Aether all say they loved it. Do you know how awesome that is? PM/Melee, Smash 4, and RoA all play VERY differently. But players from all 3 enjoy your game when they give it an honest shot. That being said, many of those same players still have worries about the game because some of things in it are just a bit too jank; and other players won't sit down and even play it once because of the presence of said jank. Additionally, they've already got their game, so that leads to even less motivation to devote even part of their play time to Minus... So, PULL THEM IN. Give Minus things no other Smash has [characters you can play nowhere else, gameplay that is over the top yet balanced, etc]. Balance the game and adjust existing aspects so that competitive players will take it seriously. And, most importantly, do what's best for the COMMUNITY; not for yourselves. A game should never be made for the creators. Games are for the PLAYERS...Minus's destiny is in your hands, MDT. Will it continue to be viewed as the brother of Silly Melee that's fun to play for laughs? Or will it be viewed as high octane, over-the-top, competitive title that players want to work to be the best at? It's entirely up to you.


Respectfully,

-Turk Injaydii
A loving fan of Brawl Minus

 

[Kien]

Let's see how deaf the ears of those in charge are.

I stand for this, not against it. I've attempted to drop or improve things that were left due to personal attachments. There are mindsets and invisible rules that continue to hold back what could be the ultimate fan experience. We're one of the only Brawl mods left out there that has actual substance in our game. Problems arise when you look at our self imposed restrictions:

1. Every move must be equal or superior to its Vbrawl counterpart.
Why? When the character by design is vastly superior given new options for every situation, it stands to reason that having certain aspects not toned down can get out of hand. When you improve speed, mobility, defensive options, and combo potential to a character, that character is leagues better already. To do all of that without say, toning down their damage output though? That's how you end up with a mess with no weaknesses.

2. This is silly and well known, therefore it must stay.
Horrible, flawed thinking. First and foremost, being silly is one of the well known deterrents of Minus. People see how silly something is and they take the game as a gimmick. There are numerous moves in Minus that are well known and effective in casual OR competitive play. You have Luigi's consistent misfire, Link's Great Spin, Samus' power bombs, Pikachu's meteor with Thunder, etc. These moves show how to properly overhaul character specials, making them extreme, effective, cool, and situational. Then you have Warlock Punch, which as we all know is useless outside of casual fun and hype displays. Tell me this though, didn't people already get hype when Warlock Punch landed in Vbrawl? In Melee? There's really no reason that this move can't be made into something useful and interesting.

3. Someone else did this, which means we can't.
This is childish thinking. Multiple viewpoints to consider, the first one being that Minus in itself is a parody of Plus. We've taken ideas from there, BalancedBrawl, Smash 4, and Melee. If a different mod makes an attack or a character that we wanted to use, why not do it? These attacks/characters first off won't be an exact clone of them, but more importantly, they would behave differently in a Minus environment. Anyone who has put PM characters in Minus or vice versa knows this.

4. There's a negative fanbase/stigma associated with etc. Don't put it in Minus.
This is for stages and character suggestions. While I agree with keeping additions related to Nintendo and created BEFORE Brawl, those should be our only deciding factors when holding back our creativity. This has come into play on a few occasions, one of which I'll mention where I wanted to include a Shadow the Hedgehog moveset that I had been working on, based heavily on SA2B.

5. We don't want the player to have to relearn their character.
If a player is a fan of a character, they won't have an issue relearning them. If we take their feedback or even let them assist in the redesign of problem characters, then they'll enjoy relearning the character. There is absolutely no excuse to refuse a character rebuild of someone who is seen as too good or too bad in competitive play.

I'm sure I'll think of more, but the fact remains that the only actual wish of the founder of Minus, was to keep Lavaville in the game. All other aspects of the game are technically free reign.

 

[Neville]

Posting to see responses.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

Posting to see responses.

I really hope they happen. As Kien implied, responses (or lack there of) on a thread such as this will show if the MDT bothers to listen to its players. Really hope they take this as constructive criticism and make Minus better for it.

 

[Gold_TSG]

1. Rules are there to be followed in order to keep things from spiraling out of control. Nobody wants to be involved in a community that's full of nothing but chaos. When people break rules repeatedly, they get punished for it, even if it means banning them. Using passion as an excuse to ignore that is bias, and should never be taken into consideration. What would you do if you lived in a very small town, and your church's pastor did countless great things for the community, then one day you found out he had a torture chamber underneath his home where he personally punished those he considered sinners? Would you condone this because he is passionate about his community? Or would you want the sicko thrown in prison? I know this is an extreme example, but the concept is the same.

2. While I agree there is much that still needs toning down or altering, your example is horribly flawed. You cannot use human error as an excuse to push for change, because in every official game, there is always the risk for human error in tournaments, be it a mistimed punish, or a slip of a finger that leads to an SD. You cannot calculate for human error because it is an unknown irrelevant to player skill or game coding. Even the best players in the world will screw up once in a while, because they are only human.

3. Minus has always been about the silly fun before the competition, ever since I got into it back in 1.6. Changing such silliness into something more competitive is much more difficult than you make it out to be. As a former tester for minus, I can tell you that balancing anything within a 35+ character roster takes an enormous amount of time, effort and creativity. It is nigh impossible to make this mod gear heavily towards the competitive while keeping its whacky charm.
As for the whole vulture thing, there is something that all developers have for each other, and it's called "Respect." PM did their mod their way with many talented individuals, and it would be extremely disrespectful to pick off their mod's corpse just for minus's gain. Nobody wants to leave that project to fade away, or work left undone, but if those people don't want it used elsewhere in other mod projects like this, then their wishes must be respected.
Mentioning Sakurai or Nintendo is irrelevant, because modding itself is technically ILLEGAL, so it's a no-brainer that they don't want people modifying their work, which they paid their teams to create. The fans modify their work because they have different wants and needs than Sakurai, and they do it for free for everyone that shares their ideals. Nintendo shut down PM because it was getting more attention than their official games at major gaming events. To them, that is a threat to their business, and they were well in their legal rights to do so. Minus is small and under the radar, which is why it is even still going. If it were as large as PM, we'd be hit no differently.

And those are my thoughts for this thread.
With love, Gold <3

 

[Turk Injaydii]

1. Rules are there to be followed in order to keep things from spiraling out of control. Nobody wants to be involved in a community that's full of nothing but chaos. When people break rules repeatedly, they get punished for it, even if it means banning them. Using passion as an excuse to ignore that is bias, and should never be taken into consideration. What would you do if you lived in a very small town, and your church's pastor did countless great things for the community, then one day you found out he had a torture chamber underneath his home where he personally punished those he considered sinners? Would you condone this because he is passionate about his community? Or would you want the sicko thrown in prison? I know this is an extreme example, but the concept is the same.

2. While I agree there is much that still needs toning down or altering, your example is horribly flawed. You cannot use human error as an excuse to push for change, because in every official game, there is always the risk for human error in tournaments, be it a mistimed punish, or a slip of a finger that leads to an SD. You cannot calculate for human error because it is an unknown irrelevant to player skill or game coding. Even the best players in the world will screw up once in a while, because they are only human.

3. Minus has always been about the silly fun before the competition, ever since I got into it back in 1.6. Changing such silliness into something more competitive is much more difficult than you make it out to be. As a former tester for minus, I can tell you that balancing anything within a 35+ character roster takes an enormous amount of time, effort and creativity. It is nigh impossible to make this mod gear heavily towards the competitive while keeping its whacky charm.
As for the whole vulture thing, there is something that all developers have for each other, and it's called "Respect." PM did their mod their way with many talented individuals, and it would be extremely disrespectful to pick off their mod's corpse just for minus's gain. Nobody wants to leave that project to fade away, or work left undone, but if those people don't want it used elsewhere in other mod projects like this, then their wishes must be respected.
Mentioning Sakurai or Nintendo is irrelevant, because modding itself is technically ILLEGAL, so it's a no-brainer that they don't want people modifying their work, which they paid their teams to create. The fans modify their work because they have different wants and needs than Sakurai, and they do it for free for everyone that shares their ideals. Nintendo shut down PM because it was getting more attention than their official games at major gaming events. To them, that is a threat to their business, and they were well in their legal rights to do so. Minus is small and under the radar, which is why it is even still going. If it were as large as PM, we'd be hit no differently.

And those are my thoughts for this thread.
With love, Gold <3

Rather than hear any of the constructive criticism or concern that was presented, i feel this was simply an attempt to dismantle the idea behind the thread... You didn't even address the ideas presented by each subject. You merely found things I said about each and focused on saying why it doesn't/shouldn't apply to Minus.

(1) This lecture was irrelevant to the point I was trying to make. No one has committed flagrant acts anywhere near comparable to the scenario you presented, so I'll present another. If I were a member of a church in small town and a long-time member of the congregation had disagreements about what the pastor was trying to do and spoke up about it, I would be fine with it. If said member did not keep quite about said matter simply because the pastor told him to or out of fear that he would offend the pastor by stating his opinions, I, again, would be fine with him staying around...if there are things happening behind the scenes that we can't see on the forums that led to bans, ok. [though that should't affect their presence on a public forum]. If someone breaks rules here on the forums over and over, I would definitely expect a ban. But, again, the way you addressed the subject was highly inaccurate.

(2) Again, you just focus on one aspect. Rather than mention anything else that I listed in the 1st sentence, you just focus on issues you personally had with my example; despite the fact that I clearly stated that wasn't the only issue that needed addressing... At least you stated things need adjusted, I guess...that clearly wasn't something you wanted to discuss...which would have been much preferred.

(3) Unneeded lecture about modding ethics. No where did I suggest you use PM's work. I referenced things they did that anyone could have thought of, and suggested the MDT not make the sole reason for not trying their own version of something because PM already tried it. Unneeded lecture about Sakurai; everyone knows modding is illegal and why modders do it. [I even stated that fans love modders for modding] As for silliness, as Kien stated, it does nothing but hold Minus back in some instances. Minus Zard, Falcon, Luigi, Samus, (the list goes on for quite a while) are all silly and Minusified, but everything they do is useful and liked by the fanbase. Instances of silliness that are unbalanced or useless should go. But if you'd rather keep the silly for the sake of some idea the MDT feels it has to hold onto instead of letting the game evolve into something better, guess that's just a loss the Smash community will have to accept. Maybe the ideology can change someday. But if certain things aren't edited, 4.0f is honestly going to be waste of time. If the game isn't being made to attract more players, and instead hold on to absurd levels of silliness and unviability that drive much of the Smash scene away from it, 4.0f won't grow into anything more than 4.0b already is.

 

[Thor]

1. Modding is not technically illegal, it's just not sanctioned. They could choose to crack down and try to get a C&D, but that involves legal stuff they'd rather not deal with, from a PR and probably fiscal standpoint [they don't really stand to gain any reward from it]. If someone can point me to something that clearly indicates otherwise, by all means, but from my understanding, PM and Minus are legal gray areas, not outright illegal. PMDT was possibly gonna get sued by someone [it might not have been Nintendo, some theories were floating around about other groups, and we don't even know if a legal threat was actually there], so that's why they stopped.

2. Throw meteors should stay if they are functional and well-made. Fox dthrow is an example of this - he lacks a tech chase throw otherwise, you can always DI behind him [or in front of him] so it won't meteor smash you, you can tech it, it can be meteor cancelled. If you are trying to DI his fthrow or uthrow at all at the edge you'll be DIing up and slightly in [or directly in] which should put you back onstage anyway. This is as opposed to Falcon's bthrow, which doesn't really do anything for him when he try to tech chase with dthrow or catch them on upward DI at the edge with fthrow so he has space to combo. I would assume his bthrow was made this to avoid giving Falcon a KO throw, but just a positional bthrow [see his Brawl or Melee bthrow] would still be much better because it would set up edgeguarding [and if THAT'S too overpowered, he can pivot grab to get a positional throw anyway, this just gives him one for each side instead of making him do that]. Some meteor throws changing would be nice, others... not so much.

3. If the dev team didn't want players to have to relearn their characters, why the **** did they make Samus a fastfaller in 3.5? This is something that still makes me sometimes just want to play 3.3 [well, that and Norfair].

4. I don't really have a 4.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

Hopefully folks will cease to focus so much on the example of the meteor throws. That's just one issue and it already has a thread. The point of subject 2 in the this threads initial post was there a many things in Minus that need adjusting .

I'd much rather this thread host conversation that is actually on topic to the grand idea being conveyed by the initial post: listen to the community, be open-minded and willing to make changes and add Minus versions of new content regardless of what others have tried, make the game for the players, keep the silly under control, etc...You get the idea, lol.

 

[Thor]

No need to focus so much on the example of the meteor throws. That's just one issue and it already has a thread. The point of subject 2 in the this threads initial post was there a many things in Minus that need adjusting .

I agree that one charge move needs adjusting [unless you're referring to the Mortal Draw, then you can go take your opinion and kindly set it on fire]. As for infinite side+bs, it's hardly overpowered. One possible offender was basically fixed [Sonic] and the others really aren't that ridiculous Fox zipping around is a little strong, but he has one of the weakest vertical recoveries in Minus - unaltered Firefox [there is something to be said for him going under stages, but that only works on certain stages and many are fast enough to still run over there and attempt a punish]. Meanwhile, Falcon, Ganondorf, and Falco all fall noticeably after theirs, and Pikachu and Jigglypuff have unlimited side+Bs in every Smash game so far. The only other character I can think of who really has this is Wolf, and his recovery travels in wide arcs, so it's not as difficult to intercept [and he falls so fast he kinda needs it offstage]. If there's someone that you actually think needs to be fixed for not going helpless after using a side+b, they could maybe be restricted to once per airtime, but they'd restore on hit even if that was changed.

I'm also curious which character you think is problematic for this. I briefly addressed them all, but I'll admit buffed recoveries was one of the biggest things that attracted me to Minus way back when I first got into it [yay Firebird buffs!]

 

[Gold_TSG]

Rather than hear any of the constructive criticism or concern that was presented, i feel this was simply an attempt to dismantle the idea behind the thread... You didn't even address the ideas presented by each subject. You merely found things I said about each and focused on saying why it doesn't/shouldn't apply to Minus.

(1) This lecture was irrelevant to the point I was trying to make. No one has committed flagrant acts anywhere near comparable to the scenario you presented, so I'll present another. If I were a member of a church in small town and a long-time member of the congregation had disagreements about what the pastor was trying to do and spoke up about it, I would be fine with it. If said member did not keep quite about said matter simply because the pastor told him to or out of fear that he would offend the pastor by stating his opinions, I, again, would be fine with him staying around...if there are things happening behind the scenes that we can't see on the forums that led to bans, ok. [though that should't affect their presence on a public forum]. If someone breaks rules here on the forums over and over, I would definitely expect a ban. But, again, the way you addressed the subject was highly inaccurate.

(2) Again, you just focus on one aspect. Rather than mention anything else that I listed in the 1st sentence, you just focus on issues you personally had with my example; despite the fact that I clearly stated that wasn't the only issue that needed addressing... At least you stated things need adjusted, I guess...that clearly wasn't something you wanted to discuss...which would have been much preferred.

(3) Unneeded lecture about modding ethics. No where did I suggest you use PM's work. I referenced things they did that anyone could have thought of, and suggested the MDT not make the sole reason for not trying their own version of something because PM already tried it. Unneeded lecture about Sakurai; everyone knows modding is illegal and why modders do it. [I even stated that fans love modders for modding] As for silliness, as Kien stated, it does nothing but hold Minus back in some instances. Minus Zard, Falcon, Luigi, Samus, (the list goes on for quite a while) are all silly and Minusified, but everything they do is useful and liked by the fanbase. Instances of silliness that are unbalanced or useless should go. But if you'd rather keep the silly for the sake of some idea the MDT feels it has to hold onto instead of letting the game evolve into something better, guess that's just a loss the Smash community will have to accept. Maybe the ideology can change someday. But if certain things aren't edited, 4.0f is honestly going to be waste of time. If the game isn't being made to attract more players, and instead hold on to absurd levels of silliness and unviability that drive much of the Smash scene away from it, 4.0f won't grow into anything more than 4.0b already is.

At this point I'm starting to think you're paranoid for the amount of times you have misunderstood someone on the forums just by the way they post text.
You brought up rules, I explained them for you so you can't misunderstand (your example is as bad as mine. Issues that happen repeatedly on the forums will be dealt with as needed). You brought up human error, which I felt was more important than your complaints about silly things I could care less about otherwise, so I explained that as well (I don't like meteor throws any more than you do, or some of the other OP nonsense, but I respect Minus for being different. At least Smash 4 removed human error in meteor canceling by removing meteor canceling). You mentioned Nintendo, Sakurai, and PM, and also accused the Minus team of being vultures in reference to those aforementioned, and I quite clearly explained the situation there (and your entire point here was basically what you think is awesome and what should be done, which is what any fan does, which is not something I feel necessitated any form of debating), as well as what Minus is meant to be, from long before you joined. You should have made a thread that focused specifically on what you wanted to debate instead of leaving it open with so many points to choose from if that was what you originally aimed for.
I completely understand where you are coming from in all that I know you're trying to do, and I fully respect that. I was no different years ago when I first joined the BR and tried to help better the mod. Alas, not a lot was accomplished, and frustrations were had, so I left and accepted the reality of things. Minus is on its last legs with this final release, so I personally feel it's unnecessary to be trying to add to or change very much at this point, and instead look forward to whenever Smash 4 Minus can happen, since there are more opportunities there when they start from a fresh slate.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

Gold_TSG Not paranoid. Idk man, just want something done around here. Sad to hear the situation for Minus is bleak. I honestly love the way the game plays. Huge combo potential and it doesn't require the tech of wavedashing, wavelanding, etc to be played at its highest level; something I always found tedious in Melee and PM, though I loved everything else about them...if 4.0f I just 4.0b with Waluigi and none of the silly/useless jank that many dont want (based on player feedback in my scene and discussions I've seen on the forums) , then I'll be extremely disappointed...guess I'll just be waiting for RoA to come out of beta or suck it up about the tech and play PM.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I'm not gonna spoil anything, but Waluigi won't be alone. That's all I'll say.

 

[snidbert63]

I'm not gonna spoil anything, but Waluigi won't be alone. That's all I'll say.

#RaymanConfirmed

 

[Turk Injaydii]

I know there's an unofficial PM Ridley character floating around out there. Would love to see its creator give the MDT permission to use it. Any help is amazing since they're considerably smaller than the PMDT; that's the impression I get at least.

On another note, sad to see no one else commenting on this; players that is, I suppose it was expected that the devs refrain based on what I've heard about "deaf ears." From what Gold_TSG and Kien have said, it appears efforts to make Minus a more serious game are usually (if not always) ignored. Though I dont understand why a dev team would ignore a message that is coming in loud and clear from multiple members of its fan base; a message that is echoed by the 30'ish players I hold a tourney for every Friday. And yes, if the game doesn't take itself more seriously, I definitely put it on the team, not just Pin Clock. I've seen some blame his leadership for various issues in Minus, but this is a volunteer project. So he only has power when it is granted to him by those following him... Seems that the players have more desire for the game's future as a respectable competitive title than the ones making it.

 

[Momurderer]

I'm sure it does seem that players have more desire for the game becoming competitive because they don't have to take the time to code that shit and they probably like to talk shit. Sure there are coders even here on the forums but when put into a group to decide what to actually spend you're time on, it's different than just going autonomous and making a ten jump Bowser or even an amazing G-Dorf... ha G-Dorf... Ganny from the block?... the Ganmeister?... the Great Ganbini?... Sir Ganselot?... Dirty Ganchez.. alright enough.

If we could see BR discussions I'm sure we'd see plenty of desire, and passion, and probably some other things we wouldn't want to see.

Also, if 4.0 is going to be final then I think it's going to be a long 4.0. Throwing in new characters can be likened to revamping a character's moveset. There will be a lot of issues that I'm sure players will uncover with time.