Stage List for 4.0b Tournaments

[Turk Injaydii]

I had a brief discussion with Thor about stage lists we use in our regions; but it wasn't in the best thread. The players of my local scene (and Thor's it would seem) disagree with the current "official" stage list. If some like it, that's fine. Not really looking to debate the quality of their list. But I would like to hear additional thoughts about the Middle TN stage list. In making our list we tried to have stage size and shape diversity, varied blast zone distance, did not allow stages that transition and/or have hazards, and wanted no more than 12 stages.

So if you have time, please take a second and look at this stage list. Let me know any issues/quirks/traits about each stage (even if its not currently legal) that our Brawl Minus seen should take into consideration when making our stage list.

Starters:

• Pokémon Stadium 2
• Smashville
• Lylat Cruise
• Battlefield
• Spear Pillar

Counters:

• Warioware
• Kongo Jungle
• Rumble Falls
• Lavender Town
• Final Destination
• Fountain of Dreams
• Yoshi's Island

Stages that were considered but didn't make the cut:

• Metal Cavern
• Castle Siege
• Pokémon Stadium
• Yoshi's Story

 

[Thor]

I had a brief discussion with Thor about stage lists we use in our regions; but it wasn't in the best thread. The players of my local scene (and Thor's it would seem) disagree with the current "official" stage list. If some like it, that's fine. Not really looking to debate the quality of their list. But I would like to hear additional thoughts about the Middle TN stage list. In making our list we tried to have stage size and shape diversity, varied blast zone distance, did not allow stages that transition and/or have hazards, and wanted no more than 12 stages.

So if you have time, please take a second and look at this stage list. Let me know any issues/quirks/traits about each stage (even if its not currently legal) that our Brawl Minus seen should take into consideration when making our stage list.

Starters:

• Pokémon Stadium 2
• Smashville
• Lylat Cruise
• Battlefield
• Spear Pillar

Counters:

• Warioware
• Kongo Jungle
• Rumble Falls
• Lavender Town
• Final Destination
• Fountain of Dreams
• Yoshi's Island

Stages that were considered but didn't make the cut:

• Metal Cavern
• Castle Siege
• Pokémon Stadium
• Yoshi's Story

A couple notes from me:

- First, this list looks fine overall.

- I'm a massive proponent of removing Warioware in general unless you're going for a 15+ stagelist [which is fine] because the platforms moving makes some extremely early KOs possible... almost like an automatic X-factor [lead extension or massive comebacks]. The hilarious example is if somehow a Lucario is down to 1 stock, nets a KO off the top getting enough time to ultra-taunt, and knows his combos - those platforms will help him take you off the side even faster than he otherwise could normally.

- One of the fundamental issues with making a starter list is the necessity for an odd number juxtaposed against the desire to balance it. Obviously, Dreamland [assume it's in Minus]/Lylat Cruise/PS2/Spear Pillar/Battlefield is not really a neutral list, because by removing Battlefield, you automatically get to start on a wide stage, favoring characters who tend to like wide stages [an example is Falco, since his lasers can put in work]. On the other end, Yoshi's Story [Melee]/Battlefield/Fountain of Dreams/Metal Cavern/Smashville has the same problem - ban Smashville and you're on a pretty small stage [Battlefield is kind of medium, but ban that too and FoD feels very small vs some like Bowser].

- In light of the previous point, trying to balance starters is often tricky. However, many stages are also included without a second thought, at least until someone asks why. That's why PM starters had FD at some point, even though the stage was not that great for starting in a lot of MUs - it was just a starter in every other game. Smashville does this in Minus, although I think the stage is still a good one overall. Your starter list leans toward the wide side... ideally, we'd make a list with Smashville [not sure how big/small it really is, but feels a bit bigger], one small stage, one large stage, and two medium stages. This list might look like Battlefield/Castle Siege/Lylat Cruise/Metal Cavern/Smashville. Battlefield and Castle Siege are pretty much medium [Castle Siege might be a tad on the smaller side], Lylat Cruise is larger, Metal Cavern is pretty small, and Smashville is, well, Smashville. This arguably leans toward larger stages ever so slightly, but ban Lylat Cruise and Smashville and the remaing stages are hardly massive [Castle Siege leans a little smaller in my opinion, but not by much].

- The problem with pushing this type of list is that it lacks some of the "staple" starters, like PS2 [which is in almost every starting list, even in PM]. The problem with PS2 is that it's not really a large stage, but it's definitely no small stage [it's like a smaller-end large stage]. The other issue is that many like Spear Pillar, which means PS2+Spear Pillar offers pseudo-platform redundancy [not exact, but very similar positions]. The sample starter list I provided has varied layouts, while the list above has the aforementioned redundancy [although that's not a horrible thing, it just happens to be what's in the list].

- There may have been more stuff but I got distracted by something else typing this up and it's long enough as it is, so I guess I'll just leave it at this for now.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

A couple notes from me:

- First, this list looks fine overall.

- I'm a massive proponent of removing Warioware in general unless you're going for a 15+ stagelist [which is fine] because the platforms moving makes some extremely early KOs possible... almost like an automatic X-factor [lead extension or massive comebacks]. The hilarious example is if somehow a Lucario is down to 1 stock, nets a KO off the top getting enough time to ultra-taunt, and knows his combos - those platforms will help him take you off the side even faster than he otherwise could normally.

- One of the fundamental issues with making a starter list is the necessity for an odd number juxtaposed against the desire to balance it. Obviously, Dreamland [assume it's in Minus]/Lylat Cruise/PS2/Spear Pillar/Battlefield is not really a neutral list, because by removing Battlefield, you automatically get to start on a wide stage, favoring characters who tend to like wide stages [an example is Falco, since his lasers can put in work]. On the other end, Yoshi's Story [Melee]/Battlefield/Fountain of Dreams/Metal Cavern/Smashville has the same problem - ban Smashville and you're on a pretty small stage [Battlefield is kind of medium, but ban that too and FoD feels very small vs some like Bowser].

- In light of the previous point, trying to balance starters is often tricky. However, many stages are also included without a second thought, at least until someone asks why. That's why PM starters had FD at some point, even though the stage was not that great for starting in a lot of MUs - it was just a starter in every other game. Smashville does this in Minus, although I think the stage is still a good one overall. Your starter list leans toward the wide side... ideally, we'd make a list with Smashville [not sure how big/small it really is, but feels a bit bigger], one small stage, one large stage, and two medium stages. This list might look like Battlefield/Castle Siege/Lylat Cruise/Metal Cavern/Smashville. Battlefield and Castle Siege are pretty much medium [Castle Siege might be a tad on the smaller side], Lylat Cruise is larger, Metal Cavern is pretty small, and Smashville is, well, Smashville. This arguably leans toward larger stages ever so slightly, but ban Lylat Cruise and Smashville and the remaing stages are hardly massive [Castle Siege leans a little smaller in my opinion, but not by much].

- The problem with pushing this type of list is that it lacks some of the "staple" starters, like PS2 [which is in almost every starting list, even in PM]. The problem with PS2 is that it's not really a large stage, but it's definitely no small stage [it's like a smaller-end large stage]. The other issue is that many like Spear Pillar, which means PS2+Spear Pillar offers pseudo-platform redundancy [not exact, but very similar positions]. The sample starter list I provided has varied layouts, while the list above has the aforementioned redundancy [although that's not a horrible thing, it just happens to be what's in the list].

- There may have been more stuff but I got distracted by something else typing this up and it's long enough as it is, so I guess I'll just leave it at this for now.

I really like the points made in this post, and it has been the catalyst for a new stage list discussion amongst our admins. This is not final because the other 4 admins will need to give their input. But my proposed new list shall be:

Starters

• Smashville
• Battlefield
• Yoshi's Island
• Fountain of Dreams
• Pokémon Stadium 2

Counters

• Lylat Cruise
• Spear Pillar
• Lavender Town
• Rumble Falls
• Yoshi's Story
• Castle Siege
• Final Destination

-I removed Kongo Jungle because the community just doesn't seem to have interest in it. Literally not a single match has taken place on it since I've taken it to my weekly.

-Warioware was removed for the reasons Thor described; janky early kills, though rare, can happen and drastically impact the match. I replaced it with Yoshi's Story because it's a fan favorite and EVERYONE can kill early.

-I added Castle Siege because it offers a unique shape that makes it serve well as a counter pick in certain MUs.

-The new starter list has 1 large'ish and wide stage (PS2), 1 small (FoD), 2 mediums (BF and Yoshi's), and the most commonly seen starter (SV). * Lylat was removed as a starter simply because I feel my list is more neutral without it. Lylat and PS2 offer similar size, but I chose PS2 over it because I felt the list needed another stage with minimal platforms. [BF and FoD are platform heavy, and Yoshi's has the platform that is almost as wide as the stage base]

What'cha think? I'm interested to hear your thoughts as well Bent 00 and Longbottom

 

[Neville]

When you tagged me on here I didn't get a notification for some reason. Your list is fine (I honestly like it better than the official one even though no Wario Ware ;-; ) my only problem with it is Rumble Falls since its side blastlines are tiny. I've killed people with Peach's fthrow at the ledge at 60 on that stage. It is otherwise fine.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

Update on the Middle TN scene: We played with the stage list I mentioned, and have since tweaked it.

-Rumble Falls was removed because of the side blast zones; players grabbed by ledge were dying to throws around 30%, lol.

-Spear Pillar was removed to prevent characters with strong projectiles and/or spacing options from having 3 very similar stages to take folks 2 [if a player banned PS2 and FD, for example, the opponent could still counter pick to SP, which is just PS2 with vertically moving platforms. that was a problem]

-Kongo Jungle was added to give players another large stage to choose from.


Current Stage List [players are allowed 2 bans]

Starters

• Fountain of Dreams
• Pokemon Stadium 2
• Battlefield
• Smashville
• Yoshi's Island

Counters

• Kongo Jungle
• Lylat Cruise
• Castle Siege
• Yoshi's Story
• Lavender Town
• Final Destination

 

[Mawootad]

Fountain should not be a starter. It has disproportionately large vertical blast zones and disproportionately small horizontal blast zone. The platform layouts are interesting, but it heavily favors floaty characters and characters with long range vertical recoveries. Similarly Yoshi's Island is an incredibly small stage with tiny blast zones, and is without a doubt the stage that most rewards hyper-aggressive playstyles.

 

[Neville]

Similarly Yoshi's Island is an incredibly small stage with tiny blast zones, and is without a doubt the stage that most rewards hyper-aggressive playstyles.

There isn't a problem with this in general but the stage is too tiny for it's own good. If it were made slightly larger so people wouldn't die at like 40 it would be a great counterpick stage.
Edit: also think you mean Yoshi's Story.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

Fountain should not be a starter. It has disproportionately large vertical blast zones and disproportionately small horizontal blast zone. The platform layouts are interesting, but it heavily favors floaty characters and characters with long range vertical recoveries. Similarly Yoshi's Island is an incredibly small stage with tiny blast zones, and is without a doubt the stage that most rewards hyper-aggressive playstyles.

False. What "should" be a starter is a very relative statement; in other words, your opinion. An argument about literally EVERY smash stage's unneutral traits could be had.

Furthermore, the statement you made about Yoshi's Island is even more false. Its a medium stage with average blast zones. You must be confusing it with Yoshi's Story, which is a counter pick.

 

[Farkus]

You removed Spear Pillar so spacing characters only have 2 stages to pick from. That means that spacing characters do not get to have a single good stage for them in the entire set. I feel like 3 spacing stages would be fine, especially if DSR is a factor. On top of that, aggro characters get yoshi's, castle, and lavender town to pick from which heavily disadvantage spacing characters and give an edge to aggro characters. I get that spacing characters are more annoying and less popular, but you are seeding the list to punish them. I can't help but feel like you are using this stage list to give your main, and characters of a similar caliber the advantage.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

You removed Spear Pillar so spacing characters only have 2 stages to pick from. That means that spacing characters do not get to have a single good stage for them in the entire set. I feel like 3 spacing stages would be fine, especially if DSR is a factor. On top of that, aggro characters get yoshi's, castle, and lavender town to pick from which heavily disadvantage spacing characters and give an edge to aggro characters. I get that spacing characters are more annoying and less popular, but you are seeding the list to punish them. I can't help but feel like you are using this stage list to give your main, and characters of a similar caliber the advantage.

I didn't make the stage list. A team of 5 players did. So, I say again, lol... False

 

[Thor]

You removed Spear Pillar so spacing characters only have 2 stages to pick from. That means that spacing characters do not get to have a single good stage for them in the entire set. I feel like 3 spacing stages would be fine, especially if DSR is a factor. On top of that, aggro characters get yoshi's, castle, and lavender town to pick from which heavily disadvantage spacing characters and give an edge to aggro characters. I get that spacing characters are more annoying and less popular, but you are seeding the list to punish them. I can't help but feel like you are using this stage list to give your main, and characters of a similar caliber the advantage.

PS2, Smashville, FD, and Lylat Cruise are all arguably very good for "spacing" characters [ex: Falco]. Kongo Jungle can be good for camping as well [lots of places to run away to].

Otherwise, what stages do you feel are good for spacing characters?

 

[Farkus]

PS2, Smashville, FD, and Lylat Cruise are all arguably very good for "spacing" characters [ex: Falco]. Kongo Jungle can be good for camping as well [lots of places to run away to].

Otherwise, what stages do you feel are good for spacing characters?

A lot of the stages you listed, Lylat, Smashville, and arguably, FD are actually pretty neutral sized which benefit general spacing and rushdown playstyles equally. They cannot be listed as spacing counterpick stages because they are so neutral. There is just not enough space to run.

And ok, sure, 5 people made the list, but that's still not a lot. And who do those 5 people main? Because spacing characters are a lot less popular, and so there is a good chance it will be a lot of rushdown characters anyway.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

A lot of the stages you listed, Lylat, Smashville, and arguably, FD are actually pretty neutral sized which benefit general spacing and rushdown playstyles equally. They cannot be listed as spacing counterpick stages because they are so neutral. There is just not enough space to run.

Lylat, Smashville (SV), FD, PS2/SP, and Kongo Jungle (KJ) are all excellent counterpicks for a spacing/campy character. They are all either medium (Smashville) or wide (the rest). If a Falco/Link/Zelda/etc took a Bowser/Ike/DK/etc to any of those stages, they would have the advantage. SV, FD, and PS2/SP all provide a flat playing field with minimal/no platforms so that opponents have limited options to avoid projectiles. KJ and Lylat, though not flat, are still quite large and have a lot of space for the spacing/campy character to attempt to control. KJ, especially, is great for campy characters because there is TONS of space to run around; both on the stage base and above in the platform arrangement. [You claim some of the listed stages are "neutral sized," but they are definitely of a favorable size for the projectile character in the described MU. Especially when compared to stages that would greatly benefit aggressive play such as Yoshi's Story, Lavender Town, or CS.]

 

[Thor]

A lot of the stages you listed, Lylat, Smashville, and arguably, FD are actually pretty neutral sized which benefit general spacing and rushdown playstyles equally. They cannot be listed as spacing counterpick stages because they are so neutral. There is just not enough space to run.

And ok, sure, 5 people made the list, but that's still not a lot. And who do those 5 people main? Because spacing characters are a lot less popular, and so there is a good chance it will be a lot of rushdown characters anyway.

What would you suggest as a spacing counterpick? New Pork City???

The stages I listed are large, flat, and lack a top platform, meaning horizontal projectiles control a substantial portion of the stage, and the lack of a top platform means camping from the side platforms is more effective [there are effectively two horizontal bands of space, not three].

Smashville is considered neutral by a lot of people but I'm starting to doubt that... in games with limited stagelists, it's a phenomenal balance between Battlefield and FD, no question, but the moving platform makes it often feel functionally much wider than it otherwise would be [if you want an example of why, watch this [I added a space between www and the . you need to remove]: https://www .youtube.com/watch?v=UHhizLQAju0 - different game, but the same concept applies in Minus].

 

[Farkus]

What would you suggest as a spacing counterpick? New Pork City???

The stages I listed are large, flat, and lack a top platform, meaning horizontal projectiles control a substantial portion of the stage, and the lack of a top platform means camping from the side platforms is more effective [there are effectively two horizontal bands of space, not three].

Smashville is considered neutral by a lot of people but I'm starting to doubt that... in games with limited stagelists, it's a phenomenal balance between Battlefield and FD, no question, but the moving platform makes it often feel functionally much wider than it otherwise would be [if you want an example of why, watch this [I added a space between www and the . you need to remove]: https://www .youtube.com/watch?v=UHhizLQAju0 - different game, but the same concept applies in Minus].

While it is true that some of the stages are larger than in some other games, such as melee, you are not factoring in the horizontal burst potential of characters due to the buffs on movement speed that every character received. A lot of rushdown characters can still close that gap in a second. These changes to the characters are why stages like yoshi's are banned in the official stagelist.

 

[Thor]

While it is true that some of the stages are larger than in some other games, such as melee, you are not factoring in the horizontal burst potential of characters due to the buffs on movement speed that every character received. A lot of rushdown characters can still close that gap in a second. These changes to the characters are why stages like yoshi's are banned in the official stagelist.

Yoshi's is actually banned because of the ridiculously tiny blastzones, not because of the stage size itself [otherwise we'd ban Lavendar Town, Ganondorf's side+B covers nearly the entire stage on its own], and that's something some people dispute [I support it because I think Falco can do fair fair fair zero-to-death with two bad DI choices, and if Falco can do that, imagine with Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Bowser, etc. can do].

I do understand that they can close gaps faster, but projectiles in general are less laggy [or have more blockstun], so I think it tends to even out.

 

[Farkus]

Yoshi's is actually banned because of the ridiculously tiny blastzones, not because of the stage size itself [otherwise we'd ban Lavendar Town, Ganondorf's side+B covers nearly the entire stage on its own], and that's something some people dispute [I support it because I think Falco can do fair fair fair zero-to-death with two bad DI choices, and if Falco can do that, imagine with Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Bowser, etc. can do].

I do understand that they can close gaps faster, but projectiles in general are less laggy [or have more blockstun], so I think it tends to even out.

You make a good pint, but I feel like the official tournament stage list is already good as it is, and if there needs to be anything changed about it, it should be warioware getting larger blastlines, but that's it. Besides, if there is a problem with a mostly neutral stage, we should add more stages to counter those rather than handicap the meta. These stages demand adaption and that's good for expanding the meta.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

I often enjoy reading the opinions of Thor. Nice to have knowledgeable members share their informative insight on situations.

I can understand why one would view stages such as Halberd and Warioware expanding meta, but others (such as those in the Middle TN scene) view it as a hindrance to the meta. Avoiding hazards on Halberd or extremely dangerous positioning due to transformations on Warioware adds another layer to a match, but they also add an aspect to a match that can make a match's outcome determined by something outside of player performance. If I'm on Warioware as Ness engaged in neutral, then a transformation occurs that places my opponent extremely close to the blast zone of a tiny stage, I'm not going to feel good about it if I land a grab and bthrow for a kill at 20%.

Arguments can be made about the flaws of Yoshi's Story, as well. However, the members of our scene favor it over Halberd and Warioware because nothing random can influence a match; outside of Randal saving someone, but everyone's recovery is so strong in Minus that Randal RARELY matters. Now, Yoshi's Story is flawed by the fact that a 0-death can end a stock around 40% (and i GREATLY hope that its blast zones are made larger in 4.0f), but at least you know it was completely your fault if your opponent lands that combo. He wasn't helped by the fact that you had to avert your attention to a laser or bomb, or by the stage transforming at the perfect time. That reasoning is why our scene prefers it and avoids Halberd/Warioware.

I love Halberd, Wariorware, Yoshi's Story, and *random* Rumble Falls but their traits definitely make the subject of their legality an understandable debate; really wish Rumble Falls had bigger side blast zones, they're just too tiny right now.

 

[Neville]

Here's the problem with stages, particularly smaller stages in Minus in particular. Small stages with small blastlines results in a lot of cheese. I think most everyone agrees with this, especially since characters in Minus have more options to send people off into smaller blastlines due to various buffs they've gotten. FOD is a stage that is pretty small but has massive blastlines. What's the problem? Every character in Minus with a few exceptions has a fucking amazing recovery, which results in small stages like that feeling much larger than they actually are (which is why I passionately hate Metal Cavern).

 

[Turk Injaydii]

Here's the problem with stages, particularly smaller stages in Minus in particular. Small stages with small blastlines results in a lot of cheese. I think most everyone agrees with this, especially since characters in Minus have more options to send people off into smaller blastlines due to various buffs they've gotten. FOD is a stage that is pretty small but has massive blastlines. What's the problem? Every character in Minus with a few exceptions has a fucking amazing recovery, which results in small stages like that feeling much larger than they actually are (which is why I passionately hate Metal Cavern).

Yeah, the cheese on Yoshi's Story is real, lol...I recently asked how folks are liking the stage list on our scene's facebook page. Hoping folks will say they want Yoshi's Story gone after seeing how early kills can happen; Its primarily in there at the fans requests.

Seems that most, if not all, of the active members on the Minus forums have expressed their desire for stages like Rumble Falls and Yoshi's Story to have blast lines edited, and their desire for Dream Greens to lose those dumbass apples, lol. Hopefully those requests haven't fallen on deaf ears.