Sonic's Boost in 4.0

Discussion in 'Sonic' started by Pin Clock, Mar 2, 2015.

  1. Pin Clock

    Pin Clock Project Leader Minus Backroom

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    When the change to Boost was initially announced, it sparked a fair bit of debate and requested clarity, as well as expressed concerns for Sonic as a character, so I wanted to create this thread to discuss those changes.

    Currently planned for 4.0
    Sonic Boost
    Reworked to be similar to Palutena's Super Speed in Smash 4
    Hitbox regained, starts on frame 5
    Now has small endlag that can be cancelled into most things not named Boost.
    A 3 second cooldown has been implemented.
    Sonic now loses height when using Boost in the air, preventing him from using it for what can pretty much be in instant free and unpredictable recovery.
    Walljump cancel added

    Nothing is set in stone, as these still feel a little too much of a nerf to Boost to be released. The main change up to debate is the cooldown. While it is essential in preventing the recreation of MAX Beta's monster of a boost, 3 seconds has been expressed by many to be too long for Minus. On the same note, it's a real consequence if someone only boosts a short bit of distance and has to suffer full cooldown because of it. These are all real possibilities.

    If you have thoughts, concerns, or ideas for possibilities for Boost, share them here!
     
  2. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    This might not be possible, but wouldn't the easy solution to the problem just be to give Boost hitbox a 180-frame refresh window? Then you can boost everywhere, but the opponent can only be hit every 3 seconds.

    I would GUESS the reason this wasn't done is some sort of problem with how hitbox refresh works, but is it possible to stick a flag [or something] in there that removes the hitbox until 180 frames have passed? I think Sonic mains would be able to live with only being able to hit one person every 3 seconds [so in FFAs if you boost through everyone at almost the same time only one player gets hit] if they can Boost around whenever they want.

    If the problem is free, instant, unpredictable recovery, could it be given, say, somewhere between 60 and 120-frame cooldown, with the 180-frame hitbox refresh?
     
  3. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    Three second cooldown in minus is not too long! If it has cancelable endlag then it sounds like it works fine in practice, that already kills most of the risk the move has. When you use any attack, you have to commit to doing it. Being able to weave back and forth freely is very stupid and the opponent would constantly be guessing what sonic would do. The ability to do this is the only thing I never liked about sonics boost as it is.

    I'll probably have to look at palutena's super speed to see how it might work.
     
  4. Mawootad

    Mawootad Minus Backroom

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    So the biggest issue with boost having a zero second cooldown (in general) is boost dancing. The stage pressure is huge. That's the biggest reason why we're looking to change boost and why just having a refreshing hitbox wouldn't fix things. A hitbox on a different cooldown than boost itself does sound like something that might work in concert with other effects though, so we do appreciate the suggestion.

    Also, we have found that no matter how short 3 seconds sounds it feels like aeons. It'll probably end up a lot shorter.
     
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  5. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    I'd experiment with 2 seconds.

    That said, it takes ~2 seconds to throw a Warlock Punch [including endlag] so it really shouldn't be THAT long unless the Sonic is heavily reliant on Boost [which just makes him centered around the move, which probably isn't the intent of the dev team... is it???]
     
  6. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    I generally wouldn't like that. Characters that have a play style centered around one move can't be played as freely and/or as interestingly. It should compliment his moveset but not be the main part of it...
     
  7. Greatest_Aether

    Greatest_Aether Forum Reg of sorts

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    Inb4 Thor says something about Falco dAir.
     
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  8. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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    I think 3 seconds sounds fine, considering what it's supposed to be used for. It wouldn't be fun to fight against a sonic beating on you and constantly catching up to follow up near-endlessly.

    Boost was made for mobility, and now its getting tweaked to have an extra benefit at the cost of fly forever. It sounds like it'd be mimicking ROB's side B in a way.
     
  9. Kien

    Kien A Meaningless Circle Minus Backroom

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    I don't see how people are saying that Boost hindering Sonic's recovery is okay. This entire idea just sounds awful. If you take away Sonic's instant ability to recover what does he have left? Limiting boost to 3 seconds destroys effectively 50% or more of his combo potential. It prevents him from safely chasing offstage and returning as well, which is a problem. Remember that the goal behind his design was chasing people to the blastline for KOs. This also removes the potential for boost mind games and boost into shield as an approach. If you're forced to guard you won't be able to boost again.

    I hate to be that guy, but if Boost has to change, Sonic should be overhauled in general. Consider replacing air boost with Flame Shield's dash even. Make it more powerful, not holdable, and have it with no loss of height but only once per airtime/ 3 seconds. His only other good aerial KO move is nair unless ceiling chasing, which he can't do without boost.

    Typical sonic combos include...

    HA, fair, HA, nair, boost, spring, uair, (reading DI) boost, double jump, uair, bounce, spring, uair

    Boost, dash atk, spin dash, (if it hits) fair, boost, nair

    Typical pressuring sonic approaches include...

    Boost, short hop, air boost, HA
    Boost, dash atk, jump cancel, air boost, HA
    Boost, jump, dair, boost cancel, down B
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 2, 2015
  10. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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    Given the length of hitstun, you can't stop being hit by a good sonic, so I don't really see the problem.
     
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  11. Kien

    Kien A Meaningless Circle Minus Backroom

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    The problem is that Sonic's recovery is only good because of boost. If you have to save your boosts for when you get sent off stage instead of using them when you need them, that'll create problems with his recovery. Otherwise you have an aether that you get no armor with.
     
  12. justadood

    justadood Just a dood with ideas

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    I saw a moveset for sonic on the vault that made his side B chargeable up to three stages and once released would burst himself across the stage quickly like a projectile, and it was a useful kill move in that hack... i thought something like that would have been cool to include, or maybe if you want the side B to be a dash like you suggest, then maybe make it have a charge style like rob's laser or wario's waft, and make a full charge be a kill move but a half charge or spam charge just do a little hitbox without knockback, and be able to be held in all stages, but slows down and gets weaker the longer you continue a burst:
    ---full charge would be a kill move rush, but if you held it down, after it travelled the range it has, he'd continue a little slower with less knockback on his body's hitbox, until the third stage, which does little to no knockback, aside maybe 1 damage and the knockback of a super scope shot..
    ---half charge would be a little slower than the third stage charge, and be a little weaker, but has more knockback than a no charge rush, and could be used for a little longer than full charge
    ---no charge would just be a quick spin dash, only a little faster than his dash, and would only have a little flinch on hitting foes, with little to no knockback and damage...
     
  13. Pin Clock

    Pin Clock Project Leader Minus Backroom

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    We're actually trying to reduce that from what Sonic has been all throughout MAX-3.Q.

    Combos, speed, the ability to approach point blank from the other side of FD with a hitbox attached to him in less than a second, a still decent recovery. Free recoveries with essentially little to no counterplay not only take very little thought to execute, but also feel incredibly cheap and unfun to go up against.

    Sonic can still do extremely powerful horizontal combos that lead into vertical KOs, just like he's always been able to. That being said 3 seconds is a while and the cooldown timer is already being played with.


    Why would you be forced to guard when you have a hitbox attached to you? Just try not to use it into armored attacks and predict around those. You're still fast even without boost, so you can still bait and punish those without it.

    This doesn't accomplish the goal of taking away Sonic's free recovery and is even worse for chasing with.

    uAir>Spring>uAir, dAir>Spring>lol

    He's always been able to do both of these things, but Boost in its current form made them a little too easy, and now requires a bit more execution to pull off.

    Sonic still has homing attack, an UpB that doesn't leave him completely helpless, and will likely be able to Boost during an air time. His recovery is still decent. Just not free.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 3, 2015
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  14. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    Coming from the Falco main, the only free recoveries in the game are Falco's, Sonics, Lucario's, and ROB's [which is dependent on ROB dash mixup] (and I guess Wario's, Puff's, and MK's??? Not really [I have gimped all of these before and it's not that hard usually, but even then, they're all designed as masters of the sky]). I've suggested Falco nerfs (no idea where those are at), ROB is being toned down, and Lucario's counter is being toned down (which was a problem combined with extreme speed). Now who else still needs a hit in this list Kien?

    If recovery is really a problem, can't Sonic use homing attack after spring? If not, add that functionality in and boom, Sonic's really hard to gimp again. Or somehow adjust slightly how side+B works in the air to compensate?

    Even then, I think that's overkill - you literally have to be hit almost directly out of boost, and far enough away that you can't drift back toward stage and spring to grab ledge [that is, you must be hit out again], AND if you can grab ledge they have to intercept you and end it right ther e- otherwise with the second intercept you'd have Boost back by then, and this strikes me as ridiculously unlikely. 2-second boost timer would make this issue vanish unless you have pathetically bad usage of Boost [then you just deserve to die].

    It's not aether with no armor, it's actionable aether that can be used from afar without SDing.

    And despite your complaints about zero-deaths, I think Sonic's boost gave him one of the best zero-to-death capabilities in the game [but was untapped], unless his moves had atrocious angles to prevent this.
     
  15. Valravn

    Valravn Active Member

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    Is Boost dancing a problem? My roommate plays Captain Falcon and does pretty well against my Sonic, if only because he's willing to get aggressive with that character. Boost dancing isn't very different from dash dancing, strategically speaking. It forces your opponent to guess where you're going to be, but they can still guess right and knee you in the noggin. Does it matter how quickly he can move if you know exactly where he wants to go? He can't boost away and laser you, he has to attack you. He can't win without coming in, and there is no character in Minus that can't put a hitbox between them and Sonic, or spot dodge the grab, or shield grab him, etc.

    Three seconds sounds like an eternity in this game: the reason I like Sonic is because you can play and make meaningful decisions so much faster than any other character. Timing a sliding grab, crouch-halting boost into a short hopped up-air, all kinds of shit that has to be done in a matter of frames. I love Dedede, Ganon, Peach, etc for their strategic options and weird tricks, but Sonic is the quintessential character for winning or losing extremely quickly.

    I think Boost is completely fine, and I think it's central status isn't a bad thing for the character. Peach isn't a poorly designed character because floating is so good for aerials! If anything should be nerfed, it's his down-air. There are a lot of situations where you can forward throw someone off the stage and spike them at 5% if you guess their DI. Requiring Sonic to actually deal damage to kill would go a long way towards making Boost less silly.

    I think the problem people really have with Boost is that it lessens Sonic's commitment to his approach, because if he fucks up his grab approach he can just leave and try again, then when it finally works he can get his practically-guaranteed Dair kill. If you don't let him get ridiculous kills at low percents, you force him to commit with a damaging move. If he's not able to boost immediately after a damaging approach, then he has to commit and stick around. I think that would be great. I don't think it's a good idea to make him unable to boost immediately after boosting. That removes fake-out two-stage boosts, and that sort of thing.

    tl;dr: Give Boost a cooldown (not three seconds please!) after making a committal approach, don't give it a cooldown after boost! It might be a more complex implementation, but I think it moves Sonic towards what he should be: a character that can always chase you, but always has to chase you.
     
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  16. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    Peach's float is easy to intercept. I have to just SHFF nair as Sheik or something if I want to intercept Boost [Falco actually has problems with it because none of his aerials have a good forward hitbox except his fair which isn't even that good for it AND is very laggy].

    Dair spike is being changed to a meteor of some sort. Not sure how it'll change Sonic.
     
  17. Valravn

    Valravn Active Member

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    Yeah, most SHFF aerials will intercept Boost. Have you tried doing a reverse Bair with Falco? Either pivot-SHFF or reverse-aerial-rush should get you there.

    EDIT: @Mawootad @Pin Clock
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2015
  18. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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    You have probably never faced a good sonic if you think you have all these clean opportunities to intercept his boost.
     
  19. Valravn

    Valravn Active Member

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    I'm a pretty good Sonic and my roommate plays several characters that never have a problem with it.
     
  20. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    You always have at least 4 good opportunities to cleanly intercept boost - when you step off the revival platform 3 times and when the match starts [that's if you get 4-stocked].

    Boost is still obnoxious though, don't get me wrong.

    I've tried bair, it seems mostly ineffective at doing the job I want it to. Reflector is very risky for doing it [and reflector is generally low risk] but has better range and won't get beat out as easily.
     
  21. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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    Play Kien then
     
  22. Valravn

    Valravn Active Member

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    Is Kien very similar to Marth? Marth doesn't have much trouble. ;)
     
  23. Kien

    Kien A Meaningless Circle Minus Backroom

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    Leave me alone. :( I swear my Sonic isn't broken.
     
  24. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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    Go beat em up Kien!
     
  25. Valravn

    Valravn Active Member

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    Where are you at, Kien? We could try playing through Netplay or something. I can't imagine it being a good match if we're too far away and get much lag. A few frames of fucked-up-by-lag Boost goes a lot further than a few frames doing anything Ganondorf. I'm in western Washington.
     

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