My suggestions [assuming Smash 4 Cloud as a base):
Biggest one:
- Climhazzard instantly fills the limit gauge and uses it up [aka there is no non-limit form of Climhazzard]. It could also be that only aerial one does this if people want Cloud to be able to use regular Climhazzard OoS [even though I think limit version OoS is superior].
This will Minus-ify his recovery, and also means that kicking Cloud offstage will almost always use limit unless he can get to ledge with just double jump [even doing an aerial to fend you off will cost him limit if he falls past the ledge].
Other ones I think are important:
- Limit charge now takes 5 seconds [300 frames] instead of the 400 frame timer in smash 4 [or it might be 404 nowadays, I think that's related to startup on Limit Charge actually charging though].
This Minus-ifies Limit Charge by making Limit show up more. It also compensates for Cloud being forced to use Limit more offstage when edgeguarding due to Climhazzard changes.
- Cross Slash does 15% with no occurrences in the stale move queue [I guess 15.75% fresh then because freshness bonus]. Limit Cross Slash does 30% [so 31.5% fresh] (this is a 4% nerf to regular Cross Slash and a 4% buff to LCS]. I suggest adding those percents as 2% to the first swing and 2% to the 4th swing [or whatever makes sure the move still links correctly without cutting the knockback of the move]] While Limit Cross Slash [henceforth LCS] functions otherwise like Smash 4, regular Cross Slash now acts like dancing blade - one press of B does one blow, 2 presses does 2, and 3 presses does all 5, but you can use the second and third presses even on whiff.
Weakens regular Cross Slash somewhat [in Minus physics I suspect the move could be gross] but buffs LCS and compensates the default version with slightly more safety on whiff [due to an optional extension].
- Uair does 13% [the unnerfed damage from Smash 4].
Simple damage buff.
- General landing lag reduction on aerials to adjust for Minus [suggested: nair - 12 or 10 (from 15), bair - 12 (from 14), fair - 15 (from 18)], uair and dair unaltered (you could reduce dair to like 20 from 26, but neither really needs it].
Alters some aerials for Minus environment. Cloud already has pretty strong aerials and will have an improved combo game for Minus though, so he doesn't need as much as some characters [say Ganondorf or Marth].
- Down-air autocancel window 1-4 and 43+ into 1-10 and 43+.
This means the move either autocancels or always has a hitbox and is useful for A-landing].
I don't think Cloud needs a whole lot in a Minus environment - uair and Finishing Touch will probably be terrifying in a Minus environment, and he's a strong character in Smash 4 to begin with.
A few other, perhaps more silly ideas:
- Limit charge gets a small windbox on startup [lol]
- Ftilt is somewhat faster and less laggy [it's his generally best grounded poke besides jab1 but it's probably quite lacking by Minus standards].
- Utilt gets a better behind hitbox [the move is not very good compared to most utilts for scooping people up, and this could fix that].
I really don't think that's a good idea, unless you like him being able to jump off almost as far as he wants, LCS people in the blastzone, then limit climhazzard back to stage.
Never mind having constant access to uair uair uair uair uair finishing touch from 0% [can cut out some uairs if they're not needed], given increased hitstun and the inability to airdodge out of hitstun.
[This is also ignoring the less obvious but still hilarious scenario of him camping characters by continuously throwing the transcendent limit blade beams XD]
I guess I still like the idea of being able to actually charge limit, instead of just always having finishing touch on deck. But if that's the route they chose it'd still probably work.
To the OP: Once this is modified, I'd be very interested in learning how to put this onto a Brawl Minus SD card so I could play with Cloud in Minus [where to put folders and whatnot].
personally i think having a limit break right at the start of the match would be nice, similar to how ike starts with a pre charged eruption (or i think he does now, might've been a previous version). also shortening the limit charge like many people have said would be nice. other than that i think he'd just need some small tweaks on moves & stuffs to be on brawl- level
If they don't take my up+b idea [that it's always limit up+b and drains limit charge meter] (or Gold_TSG's idea of perma-limit], then regular up+B should absolutely snap ledge.
I think he should also possess better airspeed after default up+b if that occurs [to Minus-ify his recovery].
My suggestions [assuming Smash 4 Cloud as a base):
Biggest one:
- Climhazzard instantly fills the limit gauge and uses it up [aka there is no non-limit form of Climhazzard]. It could also be that only aerial one does this if people want Cloud to be able to use regular Climhazzard OoS [even though I think limit version OoS is superior].
This will Minus-ify his recovery, and also means that kicking Cloud offstage will almost always use limit unless he can get to ledge with just double jump [even doing an aerial to fend you off will cost him limit if he falls past the ledge].
Other ones I think are important:
- Limit charge now takes 5 seconds [300 frames] instead of the 400 frame timer in smash 4 [or it might be 404 nowadays, I think that's related to startup on Limit Charge actually charging though].
This Minus-ifies Limit Charge by making Limit show up more. It also compensates for Cloud being forced to use Limit more offstage when edgeguarding due to Climhazzard changes.
- Cross Slash does 15% with no occurrences in the stale move queue [I guess 15.75% fresh then because freshness bonus]. Limit Cross Slash does 30% [so 31.5% fresh] (this is a 4% nerf to regular Cross Slash and a 4% buff to LCS]. I suggest adding those percents as 2% to the first swing and 2% to the 4th swing [or whatever makes sure the move still links correctly without cutting the knockback of the move]] While Limit Cross Slash [henceforth LCS] functions otherwise like Smash 4, regular Cross Slash now acts like dancing blade - one press of B does one blow, 2 presses does 2, and 3 presses does all 5, but you can use the second and third presses even on whiff.
Weakens regular Cross Slash somewhat [in Minus physics I suspect the move could be gross] but buffs LCS and compensates the default version with slightly more safety on whiff [due to an optional extension].
- Uair does 13% [the unnerfed damage from Smash 4].
Simple damage buff.
- General landing lag reduction on aerials to adjust for Minus [suggested: nair - 12 or 10 (from 15), bair - 12 (from 14), fair - 15 (from 18)], uair and dair unaltered (you could reduce dair to like 20 from 26, but neither really needs it].
Alters some aerials for Minus environment. Cloud already has pretty strong aerials and will have an improved combo game for Minus though, so he doesn't need as much as some characters [say Ganondorf or Marth].
- Down-air autocancel window 1-4 and 43+ into 1-10 and 43+.
This means the move either autocancels or always has a hitbox and is useful for A-landing].
I don't think Cloud needs a whole lot in a Minus environment - uair and Finishing Touch will probably be terrifying in a Minus environment, and he's a strong character in Smash 4 to begin with.
A few other, perhaps more silly ideas:
- Limit charge gets a small windbox on startup [lol]
- Ftilt is somewhat faster and less laggy [it's his generally best grounded poke besides jab1 but it's probably quite lacking by Minus standards].
- Utilt gets a better behind hitbox [the move is not very good compared to most utilts for scooping people up, and this could fix that].
This is all of my yes, with some other ideas thrown into the mix.
Cloud's Limit Break is automatic, with just the press of his Down-B. From what you're saying, Climhazzard is an automatic Limit Break Up-B, meaning that one Up-B is activated, the Limit Break is activated and then deactivated, one frame each (two frames total). I agree with this wholeheartedly. However, I believe there should be a 5-10 second cooldown (devs decision for balance) to each Limit Break not including Climhazzard off stage, because that has it's aforementioned special properties. Limit Break Climhazzard onstage does have a cooldown however, so he doesn't turn into Meta Knight levels of broken. Because the Limit Break is automatic via Down-B, damage build-up is not added for Cloud due to redundancy. All other Limit Break modifications you've mentioned are fine.
I agree with all of the silly ideas, tbh (it's Brawl-, it's meant to be balanced via silly ideas). One thing I would mention is that Cloud's U-Air have less end-lag frames, but only about 1-3. A way to Minus-ify his U-Air, so to speak. Everything else is fine by me.
If they don't take my up+b idea [that it's always limit up+b and drains limit charge meter] (or Gold_TSG's idea of perma-limit], then regular up+B should absolutely snap ledge.
I think he should also possess better airspeed after default up+b if that occurs [to Minus-ify his recovery].
