Return My Jumps...or Something of Equal Value

Discussion in 'Sheik' started by The Concept, Jun 8, 2014.

  1. The Concept

    The Concept Philosopher & Assassin

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    I didn't have an issue with the changes on Sheik's midair moves, but the decrease in jump height is too much, in my opinion. I told myself that I'd try and work with it, being a Sheik main, but I can't function. Trying to punish midair tomfoolery and shenanigans or even finish a combo that launches the opponent upward is proving to be very, very difficult (maybe impossible). Sheik at this point feels heavier, kind of like a ProjectM character, which has underpowered her, in my opinion. Now I do acknowledge the fact that there would be some bias because I do main her, but without an effective SideB, she needs something else, and her being as light and nimble as she was made up for that. Her ground game is solid, but as soon as an opponent reaches the skies, they're free. I realize that opponents aren't in the air forever, but they don't need to be there forever in order to for it to change the course of a match or round of stock. In my opinion, 3.3 Sheik was perfect. It's possible that it's just me, and everyone else can still use her very well or that I'm simply not that skilled with her, but I'd like to see this addressed.
     
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  2. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    Sorry. I have no input here, as I haven't looked at sheik really.
     
  3. Bent 00

    Bent 00 Longtime Limit Breaker

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  4. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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    Uair comboed into itself and gave her a ton of power for vertical KOs. That's why.
     
  5. The Concept

    The Concept Philosopher & Assassin

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    I thought they fixed that by changing the angle of the attack?
     
  6. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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    Beats me then. I use her pretty well, and I haven't had many problems adjusting.
     
  7. The Concept

    The Concept Philosopher & Assassin

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    I'd almost say to give her two jumps of 3.1Sheik height, but something in my gut has a bad feeling about that...
     
  8. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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    She can't have the best of both worlds, cause it makes her too strong. He has a pretty great ground game, her needles are amazing, and she has strong aerial presence. She has to have some kind of "weakness" somewhere.
     
  9. Sammi-husky

    Sammi-husky Scientist #1 Minus Backroom

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    Everything that sheik has ever had nerfed is because uair comboing into itself 3 times and then into both hits of up-b and killing at a grand total of 30% was not okay in any means at all. Her nair killed at 90% before we started nerfing her.

    I realize your all talking about her jump height in specific, so let me just cut to the chase. Were looking at ways to fix the deficit in her jump height without making her stupid again. As of right now, she's pretty much level with lucario if not a bit below him. No character should be able to jump to blastzone while chasing you without even using recovery. Especially when all her aerials are so dang powerful that she could combo and kill you without you ever being able to move.

    Her angle on uair was adjusted in the previous version, however it still combo'd into itself very well and my previous statements basically sum up the reason jumps were changed. They were nerfed a bit too hard, i agree. But the fact still remains that she nor any other character should really be able to use jumps alone and make it to the blastzone with such powerful aerials, wait for your DI and response, punish, then still have recovery. That's just waiting for 0-deaths to happen. She was still able to fair you roughly 3 times offstage and kill you from around 20% (before the combo) from being so close to the blastzone.

    TL;DR Admittedly her jump reduction was a little much, i agree and we probably will address it in the next version. I was just giving an explanation for the nerf.

    P.S im not just speaking from my butt, i main lucario and fight a dedicated sheik main every other day who's sheik still goes back and forth with lucario. We've been playing our chars exclusively for 2 years so we really know the ins and outs of our chars. ;)
     
  10. The Concept

    The Concept Philosopher & Assassin

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    So you would go as far as to say that Sheik didn't have a weakness in 3.1Minus?(Gold)


    Edit: Hm.....I don't like easy kills either. Your point is valid. The explanation makes sense, but I feel the execution wasn't right. We'll see how the next release pans out.
     
  11. Sammi-husky

    Sammi-husky Scientist #1 Minus Backroom

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    IMO and in short, yes. no Weaknesses persay. There were only a few characters who could stand up to her, and only because they could do what she did best better. Not because she had a weakness.

    Again IMO
     
  12. The Concept

    The Concept Philosopher & Assassin

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    In that you are not taking player skill into account, right?
     
  13. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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    She really isn't too hard to figure out, so the power she had available was too high.
     
  14. The Concept

    The Concept Philosopher & Assassin

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    Point taken, Gold.
    Hm...I see how it could be difficult to fix this.
     
  15. Gold_TSG

    Gold_TSG Can't stop The Dorf Train.

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    She's a challenge, but I doubt it's impossible
     
  16. The Concept

    The Concept Philosopher & Assassin

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    In the mean time, I plan to keep trying. I just remember today I had some online matches with Sheik, and I wanted to fair to end a combo, but I was unable to reach them. Pretty frustrating. The recovery is affected, but not to the point where I'm losing stock because of it, so it doesn't really bother me there.
     
  17. Sammi-husky

    Sammi-husky Scientist #1 Minus Backroom

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    My philosophy when balancing a characters potential is to assume both parties are playing at the same skill level. Im not basing my opinion solely on my experiences but rather taking what i see from the characters at a purely basic level and asking if one thing that can/is happening is okay. If the answer is no, then i consider the possibility that something may be in need of a nerf. I then reflect upon my own experiences in the matchup to further ponder and discuss with the other members of the team whether they think it is also something that should be taken care of.

    Of course my opinion on what should be done doesn't always coincide with what the other members of the team think. Nerfs happen only when the offending character and techniques are taken into consideration and discussed, as to formulate a gameplan of the correct series of actions to take to resolve the problem.

    Just my philosophy at least, it likely differs between the other devs. which is why not any one person among us decides whether something should be addressed/nerfed or not.

    In the meantime, i hope you continue to main sheik and discover all the techniques that allow you to unlock her full potential. She's one helluva monster lol
     
  18. The Concept

    The Concept Philosopher & Assassin

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    Thread Edit: Any time I mentioned Minus 3.1, I meant 3.3(The release where Pichu was added). Sorry for the confusion.
     
  19. Overseer

    Overseer New Member

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    3.5 Sheik just feels so weighted down with her lower jumps. It isn't very Sheik-like and I don't enjoy playing her near as much. I know something had to be done about her vertical KO chasing, but I thought the uair angle tweak fixed just that in 3.3?
     
  20. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    I think Falco can do that, but his combo ability is trash and he can't do uair strings so who even cares?

    Uair should probably just send at 45 degree angles so it can DI'd almost straight sideways? Then it probably links to fair, but can't KO off the top, but... hm... not sure where to go with this...

    I'd support a uair BKB nerf while knocking off a percent or maybe two and a fair KBG boost, since fair feels almost vBrawl weak, and I'd like it closer to Melee. But that's just me...

    I think her jumps were hit too hard. Maybe not as high as 3.3, but something in the middle, at least for now, would be a lot nicer. I think she was hit harder than ROB was, honestly.
     
  21. NEWB

    NEWB New Member

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    Er... Not to say there is nothing to talk about here, but I think we are all in agreement that sheik was too good, but this adjustment didn't make anyone happy.

    45 degree angle is good for Uair. You can even raise its power if you make it that angle. After all, attacks that hit like that do not kill very well at all thanks to DI.

    Only thing here though is that..... Aren't we supposed to be bringing down the top tiers to everyone else's level? We've aleardy established that it isn't feasible to make evryone as strong lucario or sheik or rob. We have recent thread on how we might fix rob.

    I'm just making sure that people understand that she is NOT gonna end up stronger than before after this issue with her is resolved. I don't like her jump height either, but I don't really like top tiers simply because they are top tiers. These guys aren't fun for me anymore.
     
  22. The Concept

    The Concept Philosopher & Assassin

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    Let my words not be misunderstood.
    Hyperbole: I'd prefer her old jumps even if she had the attack power of Mr. Saturn.
    True Meaning: I will adjust to needing to build up more damage before going for the kill, as long as I can reach them when that time comes.
    The devs have heard my plea. We will see how they will respond. I have faith in them, and I hope the other forum members do too.
    I do my best to fight with honor. I don't want a kill or a win spoon-fed to me. I want to go out and take it from the pockets of my opponent. Without this, it's not victory.

    Side note:
    Super Smash Brothers and every variation in the series are fighting games, like Street Fighter, Tekken, Mortal Kombat, Fatal Fury, etc. In a fighting game, each character should be able to beat each character. No tiers, only skill and tactics. Each character has a (sometimes more than one) different tactic to beating every character in the roster, including him/herself. If you lose a match fairly, it's because either you need more practice or the opponent knows the ins and outs of the matchup. I believe that Minus is not exempt of this. This is why I give much respect to anyone and everyone who has beaten me, and that is everyone on the forum that I've played, for I am not undefeated against anyone. I've never had qualms with any character, unless some of the moves are pointless. Now, this Sheik problem is a little different, because I feel that she isn't Sheik anymore but also that she shouldn't be getting easy kills. Middle ground is what we need.
    Rant done.
    I wait for update, while training with the current Sheik.
     
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