R.O.B. needs an upgrade

[Thanatoast]

I'm sure this is going to go completely out of the radar, but in my personal opinion, R.O.B. really needs a tune-up. I feel that once that old update with his three jumps was finally cycled out, folks were still too afraid of R.O.B. and simply cried "OVERPOWERED" before actually giving him a chance, so the nerfs continued to pile up. Yes, R.O.B. had three jumps, and yeah, is f-air is pretty good, but he can't abuse that anymore because of the one piddly jump. B-air is good, but the actual hit-box isn't that great. They have to effectively be in his model for it to be of any use. D-air is great, as is U-air. N-air? The wind-up time is horrid, and ability to speed it up or slow it down made it beautiful and unpredictable in the air, which gave him the chance to actually recover instead of being a moving target off-stage. The reduced reflection window on his side-b is so bad that it's hardly worth using unless you want to try to recover from the edge of the stage. His jab chain... so, so, so slow. He gets out-jabbed by Ike. IKE! The guy that uses a two-handed sword with one hand, notorious for having a slow jab chain. His roll capabilities are sub-par, and and overall he's just... so slow to use anymore. Also, his land-lag is... just terrible. He hits the ground and has a good quarter-second or half-second before he can do anything. He's a big guy, I get it. But... If he was supposed to be a ranged aerial character before, and then you take away his ranged abilities by limiting his tops and side-smash-lasers, and take away his jumps to neuter his air capabilities, one of the only ways he can get anything done is to try and wait for someone with more lag to wander into a smash attack (which, frankly, is very unlikely), hit with the charged laser (which is slow-traveling and easy to dodge), or somehow manage to knock someone off stage while they're at over 190% (but not Ike, as on Yoshi's Story stage he can get knocked to the very upper corners and still manage to side-b back on stage and beat R.O.B. at speed once again).
I feel like the recent update was like what happened with vanilla Meta Knight (which is another problem I have, but that is another subject). Everyone was so terrified of him because he was ridiculous in V-Brawl that he was given nerfs and no one ever bothered to play-test him or touch him ever again. R.O.B. was that, and now with the recent fall-speed/gravity update, once he gets knocked off the stage (which is rather easy), he's a floating target.

tl;dr R.O.B. needs a tune-up. Give him a bit more speed OR power (not both, obviously. Can't break him too much) and maybe one more jump. Not the several he had before, but one more would be fine, IMO.

 

[Thanatoast]

After working with R.O.B. some more, I found some ways that negate my reasoning (which is a thing that happens a lot).
-R.O.B. can negate his land-lag AND get out of the way with a properly-timed d-air.
-R.O.B.'s f-tilt pretty much negates the need for a faster jab. Having a fast jab would be nice, but a quick f-tilt is just as good, and helps him lay-up and rack up some good damage. F-tilt + dash + dash + air. Very good. Still has a problem with Ike, but...
-What was I thinking when I said I couldn't abuse f-air...?! It's freakin' amazing! Yeah, you can't abuse it as much, but with its knockback and speed...? It's just fine and dandy.
-One top is just fine because it can be reused. Yes.

That brings me to a couple remaining issues I had. Roll speed and that extra jump. I still believe that R.O.B. should either have a more powerful jump or an extra one. Same with his roll/dodge. Increase dodge-speed and duration by a couple frames? owo

 

[Glyph]

While I respect your ability to go against the circle jerk against ROB, I've also seen what they have in store for him and hoping for buffs is pretty unlikely. Expect such balance changes as:

-massive hits to laser's power
-removal of all momentum on side-b, as well as potentially an cancel
-hits to gyro's damage, knockback, and charge rate
-removal of any combo potential

At this stage its probably going to be better to just let minus keep circling the drain and let smash 4 drive that last nail into the coffin. That's two metaphors for being dead so you know its true.

 

[Darxmarx]

That's a damn shame.
If anything, maybe they could give back ROB's super quick dtilt in exchange for dealing less damage with it?

 

[Glyph]

ROB's dtilt is literally worse than vbrawl's if I'm not mistaken already. Let that sink in

 

[Thor]

While I respect your ability to go against the circle jerk against ROB, I've also seen what they have in store for him and hoping for buffs is pretty unlikely. Expect such balance changes as:

-massive hits to laser's power
-removal of all momentum on side-b, as well as potentially an cancel
-hits to gyro's damage, knockback, and charge rate
-removal of any combo potential

At this stage its probably going to be better to just let minus keep circling the drain and let smash 4 drive that last nail into the coffin. That's two metaphors for being dead so you know its true.

Your sarcasm is retarded Glyph, and if actually you feel this way, then so are you. Your attitude is garbage and I don't think you leaving the boards would actually do much to harm the scene with the way you talk about Minus.

Your last statement made me lose all respect for you [at this point I'm pretty sure my Falco would beat you and my Wolf would make you scream for Wolf nerfs], and has zero basis in logic. Shut up before you make it worse.

But to address the poster, Glyph is just lying - two of the points are blatant lies (or Glyph doesn't understand how to combo, which is probably the case since he can only start combos with fair, side+b, and uthrow), and hits to laser wouldn't be that extreme or really that bad, since it's for extra damage and wasn't really intended to be an inescapable combo finisher (Link's bomb pull speed better be slightly nerfed alongside it though, or else no nerfs via design philosophy).

Also Darx if Glyph fooled you, you should know he's exaggerating because he's salty ROB isn't far and away the best character (Lucario being broken and Dedede being stupid but unexplored accepted) and actually has MUs that he doesn't wreck the other player in (spacies, Sheik, and the above - and maybe Pikachu/MK because those two can do some stupid stuff) in the pursuit of balance. Removing combo potential is literally the antithesis of Minus.

What I think should occur with ROB:

- buff fair damage, raise fair KBG a bit - ROB can chase with it at low percents, but unless you DI like a moron, it's not going to link except at low percents as easily - chase with the gyro/lasers/side+b but don't get to side+B into it then keep going.
- dtilt should be reverted to pre-nerf, then reduce damage to 2% - it's a combo-starter, not vBrawl Mach Tornado+++ pasted on ROB's arms.
- laser should have lower KBG but +1% damage on all charge levels - not a KO at like 80% (that's so stupid on so many levels - like Link arrows but those aren't a passive charge...) but you get more bang for your bzzzz. Weakest laser should have a 120 frame charge time for almost spammablity (but not quite) and full charge should be ~12-13 seconds.
- you should be able to hold the b button to alter timing of neutral b then fire it - can be used at any charge, doesn't go above max charge, and charge time is 2 seconds. Air dodge tricks and access to strong laser more frequently, and also baits, but it's easier to avoid if you can read the opponent.
- up+b should get an airdodge cancel - then people will stop johning about how bad it is and I can take more satisfaction from dairing you via baiting airdodges anyway
- gyro should be weaker fully charged, but ROB should be able to launch them at an extra angle [slightly upward, maybe give him a third angle that's downward too] to better chase, compensating for fair chains that are lost via fair changes.
- nair is still way strong considering it true combos from uthrow on everyone, giving ROB very reliable KOs from a grab, in addition to his already strong grab game - reduce the BKB by like 5 or something.
- I would have to look at the character more but two gyros + gyros losing hitboxes but not disappearing when hitting shields [picking them up reactivates hitboxes] would seem fair - you can play catch more but ROB gets to throw more stuff at you = balance? They would serve to extend combos better (and more) but they are slightly easier to deal with in neutral if you shield them (but are still hard to pick up if they don't hit you).

ROB's dtilt is literally worse than vbrawl's if I'm not mistaken already. Let that sink in

So is Meta Knight's almost everything that was awesome (I'm looking at you, uair, fsmash, dthrow, ftilt, glide attack...). I don't see your point.

EDIT: Also, to let another player who is also skilled and actually sane comment on this, I summon thee:

@Gold_TSG

And since important skilled devs should read this too...

@Pin Clock
@Kienamaru
@Sammi-husky

And since he's also sane, awesome, and a fellow bird of prey:

@owo

 

[Gold_TSG]

Before I quit the BR, I felt ROB was getting close to balanced for what he was intended for, and Minus was going out with a bang by buffing everything considerably for everyone to restore the fun factor for Minus. The only one I felt needed to be fixed still was Lucario, but that was met with a great deal of opposition, so I opted out of being a part of the team anymore.

After playing ROB in smash 4, I can safely say that the new iteration of him is close to what I expected to see for Minus. He as had a lot of balance trouble because he could do virtually everything, and in the hands of a skilled player, he was borderline untouchable and infuriating to fight. Enough people I have faced using ROB has shown that the majority deems him excessively powerful compared to the rest of the cast.

That's all I really have to say.

 

[Thanatoast]

I, uh... didn't mean to start a shitstorm in here.

 

[Glyph]

Lol Thor, I keep forgetting you're the best player we have and an expert on everything smash related, my bad.

Every point I listed there was a proposed nerf to ROB beyond the ones already slapped on him. I'm not making those up. Most of them were actually slated for the 3.Q update and were pulled last minute after intervention on my part.

But hey, maybe that's not fair to you. You don't get to see any of that (not sure how that makes them lies though), so here's what we CAN expect from the new ROB whenever the next update comes out.

Dsmash nerf, pummel nerf, fair nerf, and side-b nerf (I think some of these like the side-b one already found their way into Kien's build). 4 more nerfs! 4 more nerfs!



So here's the deal Thor. I've put up with your self inflated ego for what, like a couple months now? You have absolutely nothing to back it up. You're not an impressive player, and that's reflected in the PR list that started getting put together where no one placed you above 8th, and that was you yourself who did that even. What reason do I have to care if you lose respect for me at all? I didn't want to escalate to this kind of shit talk but when you're calling me a liar and a bad player outright I'm not really going to use the kid gloves anymore.

Alternatively, PM me your 3ds FC and we can do a $20 MM. I'm confident that I can stomp you in that game too.

EDIT: Thanatoast I'm sorry that this blew up your thread like this, ROB's been a highly debated subject since I started playing him online forever ago and this is just old salt getting aired out on both ends.

 

[Pin Clock]

ROB's planned 3.Q build wasn't implemented based upon negative feedback that it was changing up his entire playstyle, as well as negative feedback in general from the testing from myself and others. It was also kinda dumb and made ROB feel not that fun.

ROB's balance in and of itself is obviously a heated topic, as it's been debated since Minus sprang back to life with 1.01, and every time it's addressed it's either not enough or too much, so in reviewing planned changes, caution must be taken. Needless to say balancing him is a much more sensitive topic than balancing anyone else in the game, and even now there's uncertainty on how to go about it, in part due to this huge storm that rises up every time he's discussed in and out of the dev room, and due to the size of our playerbase in general.

In regards to his Smash 4 incarnation, ROB is a very fun character to play as and certainly feels balanced for Smash 4, even if his laser is a dab weaker and or slower than I'd like, but taking Smash 4 ROB's features and putting him in Minus wouldn't make for a balanced ROB in Minus. Minus ROB has to be balanced as Minus ROB, and is separate from his newer counterpart.

Also, I know it's tough for ROB discussion to not get heated around these parts, but please keep things such as views against other users or "skill determines game knowledge" out when considering the validity of a user's ideas for how to improve ROB in Minus.

 

[Thor]

Lol Thor, I keep forgetting you're the best player we have and an expert on everything smash related, my bad.

Glad you're man enough to see the truth . Although I may be a bit behind Gold_TSG since for the most part he uses obscene combo characters instead of zoning-heavy people - IDK since my combo characters are getting much better, but that's neither here nor there.

Every point I listed there was a proposed nerf to ROB beyond the ones already slapped on him. I'm not making those up. Most of them were actually slated for the 3.Q update and were pulled last minute after intervention on my part.

But hey, maybe that's not fair to you. You don't get to see any of that (not sure how that makes them lies though), so here's what we CAN expect from the new ROB whenever the next update comes out.

Dsmash nerf, pummel nerf, fair nerf, and side-b nerf (I think some of these like the side-b one already found their way into Kien's build). 4 more nerfs! 4 more nerfs!

So here's the deal Thor. I've put up with your self inflated ego for what, like a couple months now? You have absolutely nothing to back it up. You're not an impressive player, and that's reflected in the PR list that started getting put together where no one placed you above 8th, and that was you yourself who did that even. What reason do I have to care if you lose respect for me at all? I didn't want to escalate to this kind of shit talk but when you're calling me a liar and a bad player outright I'm not really going to use the kid gloves anymore.

Alternatively, PM me your 3ds FC and we can do a $20 MM. I'm confident that I can stomp you in that game too.

EDIT: Thanatoast I'm sorry that this blew up your thread like this, ROB's been a highly debated subject since I started playing him online forever ago and this is just old salt getting aired out on both ends.

First things first, I never said anywhere in there that you are a bad player. Reread it if you don't believe me, I haven't edited it since you posted.

If the devs are doing that to ROB I'll just stop downloading Minus - the point isn't to make ROB bad but balanced. MAYBE the first three are true but saying "remove all combo potential" is a blatant lie and you know it - even Falco has combo potential and he's one of the least comboing characters in Minus (I actually can't think of anyone with a moveset that combos less...Snake has combos with explosives...Dedede maybe...perhaps 'Zard (I don't think so...)???) - the only way they could do that is to drastically buff the BKB of all of ROB's move to not combo, because fair -> gyro is a combo, like it or not - ROB's fair would have to be so janky stupid for that not to combo that the dev team is either literally insane or you're a liar about "Remove all combo potential". If you want to back up that statement and tell me how nothing links to anything (including uthrow changes that avoid uthrow -> nair existing, or anything -> laser), go ahead.

I put myself at 8th because I have to actually get into a tournament to show I can place well after improving and don't have a Wii so putting myself higher will just get me knocked down. I've taken games off everyone's best but you and Gold_TSG and that was when I was brand-spanking new (or lag johns on Gold_TSG's part - some meteor-cancel crap that didn't go through). Not that you care but I've put myself on the local PR for PM and will be on it for Melee if I enter one more event (two event rule and nothing doing here) because I've been taking games off people who are high on the PR and sets off people in the middle of the PRs here - I could never have done that when I last played you (if there was a Brawl PR I would be number 1 in MK-legal and number 1, 2, or 3 in MK-banned, since the only players arguably better are a DK and a Wario that both lose badly to my MK (one has a Snake that makes it close), and my Pikachu/Falco are still enough to make me have rather close sets with those players - but our Brawl scene is way small so who cares). Sunderstorm isn't well-known but he's an intelligent player who would give your non-ROB characters an interesting time because of his playstyle (your ROB would just shoot gyros and screw up his dashdance, though he might read that and just SH nair you or something). I go anywhere from even to about 70-30 with him (depends on day and how aggressively I'm switching to characters I think will give me an extra edge over my default Falco).

Kien's build is stupid and I've said as much on that thread.

I don't have a way to send you money and I don't know my 3DS FC, but I'm sure you can do reasonably well against me considering I've played the game for 90 minutes, tops, and that was just to unlock Falco and try out him alongside MK and Pikachu, which I never got around to except a few runs through classic mode. Much like how you could beat me when you had played Minus for I-don't-even-know-how-long when I first came on as a random Falco/Pikachu player. So congrats to you. If I get a Wii, lemme play you in Brawl Wi-Fi while we're at it, I wanna see you decimate my MK (my tertiary character) there since you're so good at all things Smash.

But once I find my 3DS FC (and get an update I apparently need), sure I'll play you. Unless you are FD-obsessed, I think for fun items off on BF, FD, Tomodachi Life, that Animal crossing stage, and/or Arena Ferox would be good stages to play on (I can deal with no platforms but I like them enough to not just want to play For Glory). If you're FD-obsessed we can do Omega-modes or just For Glory, but I don't really care to go into For Glory personally.

I'm also surprised that you have nothing to say on any of my buff ideas at all. How would you feel if my suggestion was the ROB changelog?

Thanks for the clarification Pin Clock. What do you think of my ROB ideas?

 

[Glyph]

Fair enough, I didn't mean ALL combo potential but rather a massive hit to it when its not called for.

In the mean time, you get your fc in the 3ds main menu under the orange smiley face option at the top of the bottom screen. Let me know when you grab that and we can play a few games, I'm down for most of those stages but a little eh on the Animal Crossing one, other than that I'm down for customs or standard, 2 stock or 3, just whatever's preferable for you. I'll also rescind that MM and just do it for the sake of seeing who wins if you don't have a means of payment.

As for your changes to ROB, they would be a million times better than the constant downward nerf spiral he's been in since god knows how long now. Most of your changes I wouldn't even personally like, like changing how gyro's mechanics work with new angles (which would be a bear to code anyway) and the laser nerfs (only way it combos is if you read the absolute hell out of someone's DI, and even then if they time it right they can airdodge it at ko percentages) but other stuff like changing how fair works wouldn't be bad at all, just different.

 

[Gold_TSG]

You guys should post your FCs in the new Smash 4 matchmaking thread I made. You know, so the rest of us can play with you.

http://forums.brawlminus.net/threads/smash-4-matchmaking-thread.645/

 

[Thor]

Fair enough, I didn't mean ALL combo potential but rather a massive hit to it when its not called for.

In the mean time, you get your fc in the 3ds main menu under the orange smiley face option at the top of the bottom screen. Let me know when you grab that and we can play a few games, I'm down for most of those stages but a little eh on the Animal Crossing one, other than that I'm down for customs or standard, 2 stock or 3, just whatever's preferable for you. I'll also rescind that MM and just do it for the sake of seeing who wins if you don't have a means of payment.

As for your changes to ROB, they would be a million times better than the constant downward nerf spiral he's been in since god knows how long now. Most of your changes I wouldn't even personally like, like changing how gyro's mechanics work with new angles (which would be a bear to code anyway) and the laser nerfs (only way it combos is if you read the absolute hell out of someone's DI, and even then if they time it right they can airdodge it at ko percentages) but other stuff like changing how fair works wouldn't be bad at all, just different.

My thinking was that the laser would have two variants if my idea was implemented - you can do standard laser (which you have access to now), and you also have the option to instead hold down B and at any point release to fire the laser, and it will be more charged than it otherwise would be by a rather significant degree (it'd be about 6X passive charge speed while holding B and preparing to fire the laser, at least if passive charge speed is 12-13 seconds and full charge via this method is always achieved at 2 seconds). So you could still finish combos with it like normal, but you could also get a second shot attempt if you miss and really want to (think of it as functioning like multi-laser-ish - you don't ALWAYS multi-laser, just as you wouldn't always use the laser's charging function, but it's there to add utility). AND if you shot them earlier and got them to a combo offstage but don't have kill laser ready, you could charge slightly to get the strongest laser before releasing (sacrificing a bit of speed for the added oomph if you them right and get the hit), or just charge in general as an airdodge read (since if not in tumble I think it's pretty much airdodgeable/jumpable on reaction, though the window is tight, but it can definitely punish airdodges).

Or else I don't know how adding the charge function is a nerf... I know the KBG stuff is, but I thought adding functionality is only a buff??? If you still think it's a nerf, I don't get how...

Gyro could have just two angles, or even just one (like, skip the whole angling buff), but I figured gyros as being combo extenders/finishers would be cool for them, and you could also play around with them more, making them more like Diddy Kong's bananas... they could even keep the lingering hitbox, I just think that would be way too much for a dev team that seems bent on removing some of ROB's best Minusy features (side+B removal? Gross... are spacie side+B cancels next???) so I figure if you make it lose the lingering hitbox and just sit around spinning but harming no player that has shielded one and the last player that threw it (until it vanishes) they'd be more open to it.

 

[Thanatoast]

I'd post FC but I don't have the game yet, so there's really no point. >.>;

 

[PermaVermin]

Why would ROB need buffs when he has the superdash?

 

[Thanatoast]

Why would ROB need buffs when he has the superdash?

Because despite having the superdash (didn't know that was the technical term when I said he canceled most of his lag on the landing d-air cause n00b when it comes to lingo), our Robotic Overlord Battlemaster has quite a bit of wind-up and cooldown on most of his attacks that aren't f-tilt and d-tilt. At least from my perspective/opinion.

 

[PermaVermin]

The superdash is Side-B -> BAir.
Really quickly. Have fun.

 

[Thanatoast]

Pft, I remember that move. ..I always thought that was the "I grow tired of this particular stock" maneuver. Silly me.

 

[Glyph]

Of course, that would also be removed with the side b nerf thats coming in the next update

 

[NEWB]

Well it's not like that was ever intended in the first place. You wouldn't even remotely have a point glyph if not for the fact that it is super hilarious at times.

 

[Glyph]

Hey, I pushed to have it removed and was overruled. And really now I'm completely on board, that kind of stuff is what makes minus fun.

 

[Pin Clock]

Of course, that would also be removed with the side b nerf thats coming in the next update

Don't make assumptions about anything planned for the next update. Nothing is final until the final changelog is posted.

 

[Thanatoast]

Don't nerf our Robotic Overlord Battlemaster! QAQ

 

[Glyph]

Don't make assumptions about anything planned for the next update. Nothing is final until the final changelog is posted.

Can't blame me for not being surprised it was already being considered, even if it doesn't make it through. The last 6 updates haven't exactly shown that rob is on pace for anything but more nerfs