OP Characters
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NEWB
Well-Known Member
I haven't come across to many op characters. I mean no god tier characters, but everyone is op, except I have a few grievances.
Rob is too good IMO. I'm not saying this because I played glyph, but his aerials are just broken to hell. His fair is so fast and chains into itself. It also combos with bair of all things, which is too powerful of a side burner to have a hitbox in front of rob. It should have a hitbox that is better fitted behind him. I also think his fair needs to be slowed down a bit and made stronger so it never combos into itself. He gets a super laser every ten seconds, and this should be his combo finisher more since it has great range. He is very strong on the ground too, but it's his aerial game that is broken.
Sheik would be more balanced if she didn't have a JC on ftilt. That attack doesn't leave her vulnerable to sheild grabbing because it has range. The attack has enough hitstun to combo afterwards anyway. She shouldn't be able to combo at high percents since she has kill moves.
Ladies and gentleman, I am only gonna say this once, lucario is pre-nerfed sonic all over again. Sonic was the best offensive character that minus will ever see. He wasn't supposed to be offensive, and neither is lucario. Look at his downb and his side b, also look at his vbrawl play style. He is a DEFENSIVE character, but his other attacks were buffed to crazy proportions, giving him the best of both. I think that if he couldn't attack out of his upb, he would be fine. This does hurt his approach, and it should because he is defensive. Increase the distance traveled by his upb, since it isn't very good without the attack cancel, and remove the attack cancel,since it had no business ever being a thing.
Aside from this, everyone else is mostly fine. Still want max zamus though. Was there an official statement regarding her?
Rob is too good IMO. I'm not saying this because I played glyph, but his aerials are just broken to hell. His fair is so fast and chains into itself. It also combos with bair of all things, which is too powerful of a side burner to have a hitbox in front of rob. It should have a hitbox that is better fitted behind him. I also think his fair needs to be slowed down a bit and made stronger so it never combos into itself. He gets a super laser every ten seconds, and this should be his combo finisher more since it has great range. He is very strong on the ground too, but it's his aerial game that is broken.
Sheik would be more balanced if she didn't have a JC on ftilt. That attack doesn't leave her vulnerable to sheild grabbing because it has range. The attack has enough hitstun to combo afterwards anyway. She shouldn't be able to combo at high percents since she has kill moves.
Ladies and gentleman, I am only gonna say this once, lucario is pre-nerfed sonic all over again. Sonic was the best offensive character that minus will ever see. He wasn't supposed to be offensive, and neither is lucario. Look at his downb and his side b, also look at his vbrawl play style. He is a DEFENSIVE character, but his other attacks were buffed to crazy proportions, giving him the best of both. I think that if he couldn't attack out of his upb, he would be fine. This does hurt his approach, and it should because he is defensive. Increase the distance traveled by his upb, since it isn't very good without the attack cancel, and remove the attack cancel,since it had no business ever being a thing.
Aside from this, everyone else is mostly fine. Still want max zamus though. Was there an official statement regarding her?
Glyph
Moderator
NEWB said:
I'd actually consider a stronger fair with lower combo potential a buff for ROB. You still have all the combo viability at low percentage (unless we're talking fixed knockback oh baby PLEASE), and now I can just chase off stage and smack anyone away for an even easier offstage kill yaaaay. Losing the hitbox in front of ROB on bair wouldn't cripple him, but it don't really think its overly broken since its actually pretty difficult to hit with your head.
You should see what he can do with double team now. Don't get me wrong, Lucario IS the best character in the game. And yeah, I can agree even that Lucario's kit in vBrawl was for a defensive character. But this is minus, not vBrawl. Lucario is an offensive character now, and with his up-B one of the most efficient at that. If you want to balance Lucario, I believe the solution is to make him easier to kill. Don't slow him down, that'll neuter one of the most unique characters to come out of the game. Just put him on a diet and lower his weight some.
First, I wouldn't say any characters are outright ruining the game. There's bound to be at least one character that each player disagrees with.
That being said...
Zamus is already amazing. I don't think she needs a rework at all. Her massively easy-to-land spike and great combo game are counterbalanced by her often-gimped recovery. She's not perfect, but she feels fun.
To me, super laser is what pushes him into the "OP" category. For its reward, it feels like it charges MUCH too fast. It either gimps or paralyzes for really easy followup. And it's a passive charge. He doesn't have to dedicate time to sitting in place, charging his super-attack, like Samus/Ike/Lucario etc. do. It adds to what makes him unique, but dang, I wish either the super-laser or charge time was toned down a little.
That being said...
NEWB said:
Zamus is already amazing. I don't think she needs a rework at all. Her massively easy-to-land spike and great combo game are counterbalanced by her often-gimped recovery. She's not perfect, but she feels fun.
NEWB said:
To me, super laser is what pushes him into the "OP" category. For its reward, it feels like it charges MUCH too fast. It either gimps or paralyzes for really easy followup. And it's a passive charge. He doesn't have to dedicate time to sitting in place, charging his super-attack, like Samus/Ike/Lucario etc. do. It adds to what makes him unique, but dang, I wish either the super-laser or charge time was toned down a little.
NEWB
Well-Known Member
What are you talking about? Look at yoshi, wario, dedede, zelda, and nearly everyone else and tell me that lucario is somehow more unique. That was just favoritism talking, and that should not be a thing. His down b is something else that should be changed. He still has a defensive moveset, but those two moves alone make him obscenely offensive. Make him lighter? Then he can't abuse the mechanic that is unique to him: aura. What is the point of tanking damage to grow stronger if he can't? He is supposed to live longer to benefit off aura, but that benefit is too great now since upb is a powerful combo tool and finisher while his downb is an extremely safe kill move and counter. A lot of his attacks kill easy and make him broken, but some of his moves would land less frequently without down b and upb. Upb is great combo tool and downb lets him be reckless because he has a get out of jail free card. Slowing down lucario is EXACTLY what should be done. Fact is, he is already slow. He is floaty, and has slow walk, run, and fall speed. Upb and downb turn his more interesting defensive playstyle into an apparently more interesting glass cannon because we apparently need more of those. Lucario is the one character that has strayed from his true calling, and the devs need to wake up and see that. I hope to see reworks for those moves.
i disagree on taking away lucario's offensive playstyle. make him easier to kill and thats it really. im not saying this because he is my favorite character either.
Lucario's moveset is incredibly unique to him. he's fast and has loads of shield pressure IF you know his combo's and what is less likely to be punished if missed. his attack cancel up-b is ABSOLUTELY necessary to his playstyle. it was designed to be a combo starter from the get go. while he may be the best character in the game, hes not far above shiek. just yesterday i got destroyed. 3 stocked by a shiek i COULDNT EVEN TOUCH. 2 games in a row.
While his moveset was defensive in vBrawl, it shouldn't be defensive now. like thunda said before the max release, the fact that people are STILL saying that he is op or broken leads me to believe that the people saying this haven't adequately re-assessed him post nerf.
i DONT CARE. if they remove his down-b completely or nerf it. but i dont see it as a problem. maybe the fact that it's jump cancelleable
but up-b needs to stay. it doesn't even combo into u-air anymore because it got nerfed
Nobody in MINUS has a mostly defensive moveset. that is what makes minus so fast and ....well minus.
nobody should have their playstyle completely redesigned from what they were intended to be. lucario SEEMS like he should be offensive. so make him a glass cannon. and he is.
if your being consistantly beat by lucario players, they simply know how to play to his strengths better then you know how to play to his weaknesses. which he DOES have a fair amount of. Minus was supposed to be different from vBrawl, that was the whole point. i dont think they have strayed from his roots at all. i think they simply made him the way he should have been from the beginning. offensive but weak.
maybe he does need to be killed easier, but dont neuter a character, and force him to rely on being defensive when there is almost NO room to be a mostly defensive character in this game.
lucario is an AGRO play style, so that means, DONT ALSO PLAY AGRO. because generally lucario does it better, so by being agro you leave yourself open to lucario. making him seem really overbearing. but if you just calm down and outsmart/outplay your oponnent by punishing weak combo's and missed moves from NOT BEING AGRO, then you more then likely wont have such a problem against it.
Lucario's moveset is incredibly unique to him. he's fast and has loads of shield pressure IF you know his combo's and what is less likely to be punished if missed. his attack cancel up-b is ABSOLUTELY necessary to his playstyle. it was designed to be a combo starter from the get go. while he may be the best character in the game, hes not far above shiek. just yesterday i got destroyed. 3 stocked by a shiek i COULDNT EVEN TOUCH. 2 games in a row.
While his moveset was defensive in vBrawl, it shouldn't be defensive now. like thunda said before the max release, the fact that people are STILL saying that he is op or broken leads me to believe that the people saying this haven't adequately re-assessed him post nerf.
i DONT CARE. if they remove his down-b completely or nerf it. but i dont see it as a problem. maybe the fact that it's jump cancelleable
but up-b needs to stay. it doesn't even combo into u-air anymore because it got nerfed
Nobody in MINUS has a mostly defensive moveset. that is what makes minus so fast and ....well minus.
nobody should have their playstyle completely redesigned from what they were intended to be. lucario SEEMS like he should be offensive. so make him a glass cannon. and he is.
if your being consistantly beat by lucario players, they simply know how to play to his strengths better then you know how to play to his weaknesses. which he DOES have a fair amount of. Minus was supposed to be different from vBrawl, that was the whole point. i dont think they have strayed from his roots at all. i think they simply made him the way he should have been from the beginning. offensive but weak.
maybe he does need to be killed easier, but dont neuter a character, and force him to rely on being defensive when there is almost NO room to be a mostly defensive character in this game.
lucario is an AGRO play style, so that means, DONT ALSO PLAY AGRO. because generally lucario does it better, so by being agro you leave yourself open to lucario. making him seem really overbearing. but if you just calm down and outsmart/outplay your oponnent by punishing weak combo's and missed moves from NOT BEING AGRO, then you more then likely wont have such a problem against it.
NEWB
Well-Known Member
I can't speak for others, but I HAVE evaluated him post nerf. I play minus more than i play anything else. My comments aren't even based off my matches against lucario because I don't play against an amazing lucario very much. I say this as I use him against others. And his upb still combos with Uair by the way. You hit someone up and then pick them off when they are near the blastline. This happened to me twice the other day.
Lucario isn't far above sheik, but sheik is far above many others. Not a good example for you to use. I say remove JC on her ftilt. That will tone down her power at high percents. The attack also has enough range so she doesn't get sheild grabbed by some characters, and the attack already combos at low percents without the JC. She doesn't need it.
Movesets aren't defensive really, I think Being defensive is a playstyle. It is necessary to know how to be defensive with everyone in minus because everyone is on crack. A Ganon that plays offensively is the worst character in existence. People who lose to that kind of Ganon are even worse.
I have already looked at his physics. The ONLY thing fast and offensive about him is his upb. It is out of place. He SEEMS like a defensive character so he should be defensive.
If you think lucario would be neutered without upb, then it doesn't sound like you played him well in vbrawl maybe? He plays the same as in vbrawl. The only difference is that he is stronger ingeneral and his upb and downb are changed. His grounded side b is different, but you use it the same way with more precise timing. And his upb isn't his only combo starter.
If you insist on making yet another glass cannon, then he should also lose his aura ability. A glass cannon needs to be a glass cannon at the get go. Aura holds him back at low percents and his aura gives his moves so much power more later on, and it stacks fast because he combos easily.
Lucario isn't far above sheik, but sheik is far above many others. Not a good example for you to use. I say remove JC on her ftilt. That will tone down her power at high percents. The attack also has enough range so she doesn't get sheild grabbed by some characters, and the attack already combos at low percents without the JC. She doesn't need it.
Movesets aren't defensive really, I think Being defensive is a playstyle. It is necessary to know how to be defensive with everyone in minus because everyone is on crack. A Ganon that plays offensively is the worst character in existence. People who lose to that kind of Ganon are even worse.
I have already looked at his physics. The ONLY thing fast and offensive about him is his upb. It is out of place. He SEEMS like a defensive character so he should be defensive.
If you think lucario would be neutered without upb, then it doesn't sound like you played him well in vbrawl maybe? He plays the same as in vbrawl. The only difference is that he is stronger ingeneral and his upb and downb are changed. His grounded side b is different, but you use it the same way with more precise timing. And his upb isn't his only combo starter.
If you insist on making yet another glass cannon, then he should also lose his aura ability. A glass cannon needs to be a glass cannon at the get go. Aura holds him back at low percents and his aura gives his moves so much power more later on, and it stacks fast because he combos easily.
NEWB said:
vBrawl as a whole is a much more defensive game than Minus. Just because a character could only be effective defensively in vBrawl doesn't mean they can't go totally aggro in Minus and win.
UpB cancel is necessary because it's Lucario's prime means of locomotion. It's not the only way to approach or start a combo, but it's his most useful move.
I'd also disagree with removing unique character mechanics. That simply makes the game less interesting. But is aura too strong? Maybe. I would be fine if Aura's impact on Lucario's strength was slightly lessened, and his weight decreased.
NEWB
Well-Known Member
I obviously would rather not lose it either, but it's you guys that want him to be a glass cannon. Being weak at the start if a stock would hurt a glass cannon, and being strong with aura benefits too greatly since it powers up most of his attacks into kill moves. He is also heavyweight right now, which benefits glass cannons greatly. He can't have both aura and weight like he is supposed to. Making him lighter defeats the purpose of aura completely! Toning down its effects also messes up his ultra taunt.
Maybe he could start each stock at 50 percent or something, but I think I heard that it couldn't be done. That would be the only way to keep aura and weight.
Maybe he could start each stock at 50 percent or something, but I think I heard that it couldn't be done. That would be the only way to keep aura and weight.
What if his moves only acted a certain way after Lucario got over a certain amount of damage?
Like, until he was at a certain damage, certain specials were basically vBrawl?
30% - UpB gains aerial cancel
90% - DownB enters instant-counterattack state
I figure that 30% is a fair amount to put UpB at as it's a pretty crucial part of Lucario's moveset, and attainable after he takes only a few decent hits (or taunts three times).
I put Counter's damage requirement way higher since it's such an great mixup tool. For the options it gives, it's a little crazy to have it right out of the gate combined with his UpB.
Too big of a change?
Like, until he was at a certain damage, certain specials were basically vBrawl?
30% - UpB gains aerial cancel
90% - DownB enters instant-counterattack state
I figure that 30% is a fair amount to put UpB at as it's a pretty crucial part of Lucario's moveset, and attainable after he takes only a few decent hits (or taunts three times).
I put Counter's damage requirement way higher since it's such an great mixup tool. For the options it gives, it's a little crazy to have it right out of the gate combined with his UpB.
Too big of a change?
Glyph
Moderator
I like the idea, but do feel 90% is too high for the counter to kick in. I'd put it more at like 75%.
I'd also like to see the vBrawl versions of the moves not literally just be vBrawl versions. The idea of a character who's abilities get better as they fight is SUPER cool sounding, but that doesn't mean low-percentage Lucario shouldn't get any love. Maybe hitting Lucario during the counter frames would combo into his side-b grab or something. Up-b being at 30% is already pretty much exactly where it should be, and really with such a low percentage threshold it wouldn't need anything more than it already has.
I'd also like to see the vBrawl versions of the moves not literally just be vBrawl versions. The idea of a character who's abilities get better as they fight is SUPER cool sounding, but that doesn't mean low-percentage Lucario shouldn't get any love. Maybe hitting Lucario during the counter frames would combo into his side-b grab or something. Up-b being at 30% is already pretty much exactly where it should be, and really with such a low percentage threshold it wouldn't need anything more than it already has.
NEWB
Well-Known Member
An interesting idea indeed. I like counter being available at high percents since that is when you need the move.
Does anybody else think that it shouldn't be a kill move? Just because lucario gets to high damage doesn't mean a lot of his attacks should kill. This move is more of a positions tool anyway, so it shouldn't kill IMO. I feel like he gets too many kill moves or they are just too easy to land thanks to his upb. That's where I feel he gets op.
How do we make rob more manageable?
Does anybody else think that it shouldn't be a kill move? Just because lucario gets to high damage doesn't mean a lot of his attacks should kill. This move is more of a positions tool anyway, so it shouldn't kill IMO. I feel like he gets too many kill moves or they are just too easy to land thanks to his upb. That's where I feel he gets op.
How do we make rob more manageable?
i'm not against that. i think it's a good idea. though i dont think 90% for his insta-counter is reasonable. it should be either 70 or 75%.
though, his counter i think shouldn't be completely vBrawl. it needs some twist, especially since the counter itself isn't a very reliable one.
make it a little more bang for your buck, since it's a pretty risky scenario. if you don't end up countering someone, and your at like 70, just under the insta counter, you could be combo'd to death by some characters or punished hard. like wolf or shiek combo wise, and hard hitters like mario's f-smash that will kill Lucario at like 88% if your not center stage, or ike.
the latter of those two would deserve the kill since it's a fairly bad matchup on ike's end, but mario is good enough to where he shouldn't deserve a kill for not falling into a counter.
im not saying to make it TOO different. just throw a little minus in the mix.
though, his counter i think shouldn't be completely vBrawl. it needs some twist, especially since the counter itself isn't a very reliable one.
make it a little more bang for your buck, since it's a pretty risky scenario. if you don't end up countering someone, and your at like 70, just under the insta counter, you could be combo'd to death by some characters or punished hard. like wolf or shiek combo wise, and hard hitters like mario's f-smash that will kill Lucario at like 88% if your not center stage, or ike.
the latter of those two would deserve the kill since it's a fairly bad matchup on ike's end, but mario is good enough to where he shouldn't deserve a kill for not falling into a counter.
im not saying to make it TOO different. just throw a little minus in the mix.
NEWB
Well-Known Member
I don't have a problem with wario. The crates can be used by you as well if you simply smack them away. Or you jump over them. They have continuously been reducing the knockback for the crates as well, so much sure you're common.pac's are up to date.
His aerials also have little range except for back air. Your aerials should over power and out range him. Vids of your wario main would be nice.
Sheik just needs her combo ability toned down. If she is going to stay the same, Uair needs to get nerfed as was already said. I think she should lose the JC on her ftilt since it's good without it. Her grabs may also need to change.
His aerials also have little range except for back air. Your aerials should over power and out range him. Vids of your wario main would be nice.
Sheik just needs her combo ability toned down. If she is going to stay the same, Uair needs to get nerfed as was already said. I think she should lose the JC on her ftilt since it's good without it. Her grabs may also need to change.