Official Tournament #5: The Late Spring Break

[Pin Clock]

Another month another tournament, and our fifth official tournament (Third on Netplay) is just what's needed to get ready for summer!The date is set for May 14th, at 8PM EST/5PM PST, a great day in the middle of May!

1. Download the Official Netplay Build here: http://www.mediafire.com/download/it79bim9lbcj3cl/4.0b+Netplay+Build.zip
2. Register for the tournament here: http://challonge.com/tournaments/signup/Vx1WOkkPOf
3. On May 14th from 7:00 PM EST/4:00PM PST-8:00 PM EST/5:00PM PST, check in for the tournament on the same link you used to register!
4. Go to the chat here to meet up with the other participants: https://forums.brawlminus.net/pages/chatroom/
5. Once the tournament starts, find your foes and play your games!

You will also be able to watch the tournament here now on our Youtube channel here!

NOTE: You must use the official netplay build! If you have downloaded it before January 17th, 2016, you will have to download the latest version, or else there will be desynchs!

Now, for the rules!

Spoiler: Brawl Minus Official Ruleset

• 1v1 Tournament, Brawl Minus 4.0b
• Items are set to Off and None.
• Stock and Time are set to 4 stock and 8 minutes respectively.
• Regular sets are best of 3 matches. The semi-finals (winners and losers), finals (winners and losers), and Grand Finals sets will be in best of 5 format.
• In the Grand Finals, the entrant from the Winner's Bracket has to win one set of best of 5, while the entrant from the Loser's Bracket must win two sets.
• Blatant stalling is prohibited. What is considered stalling is up to the Tournament Host to determine.
• Chaingrabs are limited to 3 of the same throw in a row. (EX: Pichu dThrow)
• Suicide Rule: If a match ends by both remaining players losing their last stock at the same time due to a suicide move (EX: Flame Choke, Galactic Crusher) then the initiator of the suicide move is considered the winner of the match regardless of what the results screen says, and no tiebreaker is played.
  
• Blind Picks: the first character selection of a set must be without prior knowledge of the opponent's character selection for both players.
• Dave's Stupid Rule: No player can counter pick a stage he or she has previously won on unless agreed upon by both players.
• Gentleman's clause: any stage may be played on so long as both players agree to it, including banned stages. This can be used in tandem with Dave's Stupid Rule (DSR).
• Timed out matches will be determined by the remaining number of lives, then percentage of the current stock. In the event of a percentage tie, replay that match with one life and 3 minutes of time, using the same characters on the same stage. Any Sudden Death match is strictly not to be played.

Stages
Round 1: Each player strikes 2 stages, and the last stage remaining is chosen. The strike order is 1-2-2-1. In other words, one person strikes one, the second person strikes twice, and the first strikes last.
Round 2: Counterpick stages can now be selected. The Winner of the last round strikes 3 stages, and the loser of round 1 can choose any remaining stage to play the second match on.

Starters:

• Battlefield
• Final Destination
• Pokemon Stadium 2
• Smashville
• Spear Pillar

Counterpicks:

• Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
• Lavander Town
• Castle Siege
• Fountain of Dreams
• Lylat Cruise
• Halberd
• Warioware

And the prizes, as usual.

1st place: $50
2nd place: $30
3rd place: $20

Prizes will be distributed via Paypal. If you do not have a Paypal account, we will look into alternative ways to hand you your winnings. If there is an issue, please contact me about it and I will see what can be done. Do not share payment info until requested.

As always, BREAK THE LIMITS on fun for everyone!

 

[Turk Injaydii]

The following is constructive criticism to ensure a more efficient, diverse stage list:
Surprised to see Halberd as a legal stage. There are so many static, hazardless stages in Minus that the presence of a stage that transitions and has hazards is completely unneeded. Only time you see stages such as this legal are in games that have limited stage options; which is just Brawl. PM had transitioning stages, but never used them in tourney. Smash 4's meta has evolved so that majors no longer allow Delfino Plaza or Halberd because they want to cut out the jank that accompanies these stages and ensure the match's outcome is strictly a reflection of player skill. Stage list I use in the brackets at my weeklies is as follows to ensure the same.

Starters: Pokémon Stadium 2, Spear Pillar, Battlefield, Lylat Cruise, Smashville
Counters: Lavender Town, Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi's Island, Warioware, Kongo Jungle (KJ), Rumble Falls (RF), Final Destination

You may want to consider adding RF and KJ to your list. Your stage list lacks a truly large stage, and the majority either have a small playing area, small blast zones, or both (CS, Yoshi's, SV, LT, FoD, Warioware, Lylat is kinda of on the edge).

• RF has small side blast zones, but the playing area is very large and the ceiling is high. The large playing area gives players the room to run around and take advantage of faster characters, or the space to play more campy. The small side blast zones also add to the counter-picking, as it favors characters with kill moves with horizontal kb.
• KJ has very large blast zones, by far the largest ones of any stage that could be considered for tournament play. In other games, camping was an issue because the stage was larger and the canon was present. However, the stage:character size discrepancy is much smaller. Nearly (if not all) of the cast can shark through the top platforms with an up-air by only expending one jump. And the absence of the canon takes away camping off-stage.

 

[Thor]

The following is constructive criticism to ensure a more efficient, diverse stage list:
Surprised to see Halberd as a legal stage. There are so many static, hazardless stages in Minus that the presence of a stage that transitions and has hazards is completely unneeded. Only time you see stages such as this legal are in games that have limited stage options; which is just Brawl. PM had transitioning stages, but never used them in tourney. Smash 4's meta has evolved so that majors no longer allow Delfino Plaza or Halberd because they want to cut out the jank that accompanies these stages and ensure the match's outcome is strictly a reflection of player skill. Stage list I use in the brackets at my weeklies is as follows to ensure the same.

Starters: Pokémon Stadium 2, Spear Pillar, Battlefield, Lylat Cruise, Smashville
Counters: Lavender Town, Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi's Island, Warioware, Kongo Jungle (KJ), Rumble Falls (RF), Final Destination

You may want to consider adding RF and KJ to your list. Your stage list lacks a truly large stage, and the majority either have a small playing area, small blast zones, or both (CS, Yoshi's, SV, LT, FoD, Warioware, Lylat is kinda of on the edge).

• RF has small side blast zones, but the playing area is very large and the ceiling is high. The large playing area gives players the room to run around and take advantage of faster characters, or the space to play more campy. The small side blast zones also add to the counter-picking, as it favors characters with kill moves with horizontal kb.
• KJ has very large blast zones, by far the largest ones of any stage that could be considered for tournament play. In other games, camping was an issue because the stage was larger and the canon was present. However, the stage:character size discrepancy is much smaller. Nearly (if not all) of the cast can shark through the top platforms with an up-air by only expending one jump. And the absence of the canon takes away camping off-stage.

The cannon is the best part of that stage D : I miss it.

For the sake of argument, I will post the stagelist Minnesota will be using the following stage list for Brawl Minus 4.0b, at least for now:
Starters: Final Destination, Pokémon Stadium 2, Smashville, Battlefield, Fountain of Dreams
Counterpicks: Spear Pillar, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Lavendar Town, Castle Siege

This was a list I produced taking into account several factors:
- MN wanted a smaller-sized stage list. Most people agreed no more than 10 stages were needed.
- Many people are a fan of Lavendar Town in MN [although I'm not].
- People wanted diversity in stage shape, size, and blastzones. This seemed reasonable given those concerns.
- My original list had Lylat Cruise instead of Spear Pillar for further diversity, but Spear Pillar got the nod because a few of the other people helping organize the scene really like Spear Pillar and really don't like Lylat [and no one really objected to that swap].

I will likely be pushing for the addition of "Norfair 3.3". when Minus 4.0f comes out.

I think removing Warioware would be a good idea because the size of the stage is ridiculous [Ness fthrow OHKOs on platforms that moved, and many characters net absurdly early KOs... it is a polarizing stage when other small-ish stages still have relatively small blastzones]. If you also removed Halberd, as suggested above, you would have MN's list plus Lylat, which I think is nice, although I've a soft spot for Halberd.

That said, I personally think Lylat and Spear Pillar are on the larger end of things, although hardly too big. If Dream Greens didn't have the apples [or if apples weren't so strong], it'd be a nice stage to put in the mix, but I'm pretty sure the apples aren't leaving any time soon.

[This may indirectlly be an argument for giving Lylat larger blastzones? It would make it a functionally large stage, and one with a very nice layout to boot.]

I won't be able to attend this... I'm coming back home to my Wii on the 14th XD. I don't have Dolphin, so I won't be home in time to set it up even if I wanted to.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

The cannon is the best part of that stage D : I miss it.

Starters: Final Destination, Pokémon Stadium 2, Smashville, Battlefield, Fountain of Dreams
Counterpicks: Spear Pillar, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Lavendar Town, Castle Siege

This was a list I produced taking into account several factors:
- MN wanted a smaller-sized stage list. Most people agreed no more than 10 stages were needed.
- Many people are a fan of Lavendar Town in MN [although I'm not].
- People wanted diversity in stage shape, size, and blastzones. This seemed reasonable given those concerns.
- My original list had Lylat Cruise instead of Spear Pillar for further diversity, but Spear Pillar got the nod because a few of the other people helping organize the scene really like Spear Pillar and really don't like Lylat [and no one really objected to that swap].
...
I think removing Warioware would be a good idea because the size of the stage is ridiculous [Ness fthrow OHKOs on platforms that moved, and many characters net absurdly early KOs... it is a polarizing stage when other small-ish stages still have relatively small blastzones]...

That said, I personally think Lylat and Spear Pillar are on the larger end of things, although hardly too big. If Dream Greens didn't have the apples [or if apples weren't so strong], it'd be a nice stage to put in the mix, but I'm pretty sure the apples aren't leaving any time soon.

Thank you for posting your stage list! I will keep this in mind next time I speak with the admins of my local Minus scene. The more discussion, the more chance we have at developing the most optimal list! Few remarks/questions:

• When developing the stage list, we also wanted to make sure the stage shape and size was very diverse.
• Admins all wanted to have a stage list of only 10, but the community wanted FoD and Yoshi's Island and didn't want to lose any of the other stages. So we appealed to them.
• Interesting that you mention the redundancy of PS2 and SP, I may push to remove one or the other for a more unique stage like CS to add more diversity.
• You've been around here longer and surely have more experience with the game than me, what would you say are the 3 largest and 3 smallest stages that could be considered for competitive play? (be sure to take into account the ones MN and my TN scene uses, and any others that aren't being used by either buy ware neutral enough for the competitive setting.)
• Are absurdly early kills on Wariorware common? If so, I'll definitely want it removed. We just like it because its unique to Minus and an interesting stage.

 

[Thor]

I don't know if Warioware always generates absurdly early KOs, but the stage feels small and has small blastzones. I've lived a while on it, but if you've ever seen a Melee Marth net a KO at 10% because of bad DI on a tipper, that sort of thing happens on this stage too sometimes. You'll also just sometimes get double knee'd by Falcon and KO'd at like 30% before the first knee hit if you aren't DIing carefully lol.

I'm very very partial to Metal Cavern, but many people don't like slopes. I'd have to really go back and look at the stage list to tell you the three largest and smallest [haven't looked at it like that in quite a while], but Lavender Town feels tiny to me and FoD is not big at all and both are workable.

I'm partial to Rumble Falls for doubles, but in singles it feels weird since the stage itself is big but you can get KO'd off the sides so early. I know at one point MN was using the Mario Bros. stage, which again was phenomenal for doubles, but feels odd for singles because of the gap.

I also really like Peach's Castle twilight version [aka Bowser's Castle] where the ledge is always grabbable on both sides, and it feels decently big, but I know the bumper and two aerial "ramps" are something many would say is reason for banning.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

I don't know if Warioware always generates absurdly early KOs, but the stage feels small and has small blastzones. I've lived a while on it, but if you've ever seen a Melee Marth net a KO at 10% because of bad DI on a tipper, that sort of thing happens on this stage too sometimes. You'll also just sometimes get double knee'd by Falcon and KO'd at like 30% before the first knee hit if you aren't DIing carefully lol.

I'm very very partial to Metal Cavern, but many people don't like slopes. I'd have to really go back and look at the stage list to tell you the three largest and smallest [haven't looked at it like that in quite a while], but Lavender Town feels tiny to me and FoD is not big at all and both are workable.

I'm partial to Rumble Falls for doubles, but in singles it feels weird since the stage itself is big but you can get KO'd off the sides so early. I know at one point MN was using the Mario Bros. stage, which again was phenomenal for doubles, but feels odd for singles because of the gap.

I also really like Peach's Castle twilight version [aka Bowser's Castle] where the ledge is always grabbable on both sides, and it feels decently big, but I know the bumper and two aerial "ramps" are something many would say is reason for banning.

One of the other admins wanted Metal Cavern in our list, but he decided not to include it because we thought many would oppose it because of its slopes.

I need to take some time and do some thorough testing on all stages that are candidates for bracket play. If Pokemon Stadium 1 has close to large blast zones, I may try to add it to our scene's list. RF will definitely remain because the large play area is precisely the kind of thing that adds to stage diversity; its really no larger than Melee Dreamland. Due to the same reasoning, I may have to test SP and PS2 and see which I want to stay and which I want to go. I definitely agree that they are very similar and having both is a bit redundant.

I also may push for a smaller list...I just feel 10 is the perfect number...but hey, its all about what the majority of the scene wants.

 

[Thor]

One of the other admins wanted Metal Cavern in our list, but he decided not to include it because we thought many would oppose it because of its slopes.

I need to take some time and do some thorough testing on all stages that are candidates for bracket play. If Pokemon Stadium 1 has close to large blast zones, I may try to add it to our scene's list. RF will definitely remain because the large play area is precisely the kind of thing that adds to stage diversity; its really no larger than Melee Dreamland. Due to the same reasoning, I may have to test SP and PS2 and see which I want to stay and which I want to go. I definitely agree that they are very similar and having both is a bit redundant.

I also may push for a smaller list...I just feel 10 is the perfect number...but hey, its all about what the majority of the scene wants.

It feels large relative to the blastzone size if that makes sense. I think if it had Melee Dreamland blastzones it'd be perfectly fine tbh, but as it stands it feels weird when Lucario can KO you at like 25% from a max aura command grab [or could earlier].

I am a fan of larger lists usually [back when PM ran 14 stages was nice], but I made a list of 9 because my scene wanted no more than 10 stages.

 

[666DAMAGE]

The following is constructive criticism to ensure a more efficient, diverse stage list:
Surprised to see Halberd as a legal stage. There are so many static, hazardless stages in Minus that the presence of a stage that transitions and has hazards is completely unneeded. Only time you see stages such as this legal are in games that have limited stage options; which is just Brawl. PM had transitioning stages, but never used them in tourney. Smash 4's meta has evolved so that majors no longer allow Delfino Plaza or Halberd because they want to cut out the jank that accompanies these stages and ensure the match's outcome is strictly a reflection of player skill. Stage list I use in the brackets at my weeklies is as follows to ensure the same.

Starters: Pokémon Stadium 2, Spear Pillar, Battlefield, Lylat Cruise, Smashville
Counters: Lavender Town, Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi's Island, Warioware, Kongo Jungle (KJ), Rumble Falls (RF), Final Destination

You may want to consider adding RF and KJ to your list. Your stage list lacks a truly large stage, and the majority either have a small playing area, small blast zones, or both (CS, Yoshi's, SV, LT, FoD, Warioware, Lylat is kinda of on the edge).

• RF has small side blast zones, but the playing area is very large and the ceiling is high. The large playing area gives players the room to run around and take advantage of faster characters, or the space to play more campy. The small side blast zones also add to the counter-picking, as it favors characters with kill moves with horizontal kb.
• KJ has very large blast zones, by far the largest ones of any stage that could be considered for tournament play. In other games, camping was an issue because the stage was larger and the canon was present. However, the stage:character size discrepancy is much smaller. Nearly (if not all) of the cast can shark through the top platforms with an up-air by only expending one jump. And the absence of the canon takes away camping off-stage.

Halberd stays or I go!!

HALBERD FOR LIFE!

Minus is designed around their stage list specifically, it is the set rules for how to play the game competitively. It's one of my favorite things about Minus as a competitive game. No ambiguity, no BS, this is the ruleset for serious play, period.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

Halberd stays or I go!!

HALBERD FOR LIFE!

Minus is designed around their stage list specifically, it is the set rules for how to play the game competitively. It's one of my favorite things about Minus as a competitive game. No ambiguity, no BS, this is the ruleset for serious play, period.

Not in my scene, lol. So its far from "period."

 

[666DAMAGE]

Not in my scene, lol. So its far from "period."

I'm gonna apologize in advance because rules in competitive games are like the most fascinating, interesting topic in the world to me. I've really done a lot of reading and pondering about it in general. I feel anyone that does will see Smash community rules in a completely different light.

This is a good place to start: https://sirlin.squarespace.com/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned

See, in any other Smash game I'd say that is defensible in a competitive environment because unlike Street Fighter every non-Minus Smash game has a ton of options with no clear direction on what the rules are. It's like getting a board game with a ton of pieces and only a loose idea of how it works. So the community has to cull things, has to make judgement calls, etc.

Minus is sort of breaking that mold, because that mold while very ingrained in Smash culture is very inferior for competition because as any competitive game designer will tell you they want every player practicing and competing with the exact same pieces/rules, it's why every tournament ever uses 2/3 rounds for Street Fighter, some people do like more rounds and the option is there but the game starts with 2/3 rounds so that's the default. Capcom lays it out and makes it clear that these are the rules and that's final.

That's what Minus does to the best of its technical ability, on boot you get 4 stocks, 8 minutes, items off and the random stage list (should) be this stage list (I think they said they overlooked that detail accidentally) so all you have to do is choose characters, strike and start the set.

Changing that for tournaments on the basis of "I don't like it" "loljank" is really just scrub talk when you break it down.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

I'm gonna apologize in advance because rules in competitive games are like the most fascinating, interesting topic in the world to me. I've really done a lot of reading and pondering about it in general. I feel anyone that does will see Smash community rules in a completely different light.

This is a good place to start: https://sirlin.squarespace.com/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned

See, in any other Smash game I'd say that is defensible in a competitive environment because unlike Street Fighter every non-Minus Smash game has a ton of options with no clear direction on what the rules are. It's like getting a board game with a ton of pieces and only a loose idea of how it works. So the community has to cull things, has to make judgement calls, etc.

Minus is sort of breaking that mold, because that mold while very ingrained in Smash culture is very inferior for competition because as any competitive game designer will tell you they want every player practicing and competing with the exact same pieces/rules, it's why every tournament ever uses 2/3 rounds for Street Fighter, some people do like more rounds and the option is there but the game starts with 2/3 rounds so that's the default. Capcom lays it out and makes it clear that these are the rules and that's final.

That's what Minus does to the best of its technical ability, on boot you get 4 stocks, 8 minutes, items off and the random stage list (should) be this stage list (I think they said they overlooked that detail accidentally) so all you have to do is choose characters, strike and start the set.

Changing that for tournaments on the basis of "I don't like it" "loljank" is really just scrub talk when you break it down.

Choosing to avoid competitive play on a stage with aspects outside of the players that influence the match is far from scrub talk.

I'm not one to throw insults around or look down on how others choose to play a game; especially when its a game I enjoy and want to see flourish. So I'll simply say this: Play how you want. We'll play how we want, and remain respectful of how you or anyone else chooses to play.

 

[666DAMAGE]

Choosing to avoid competitive play on a stage with aspects outside of the players that influence the match is far from scrub talk.

I'm not one to throw insults around or look down on how others choose to play a game; especially when its a game I enjoy and want to see flourish. So I'll simply say this: Play how you want. We'll play how we want, and remain respectful of how you or anyone else chooses to play.

I'm not looking down on anyone, I'm trying to expand your point of view beyond Smash, in every other game the community holds no power in deciding how the game is played because the devs set it. I'm saying that's probably for the better because to this day there are still dissenters of Melee's rules, of Brawl's rules, of PM's rules and of 4's rules.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

I'm not looking down on anyone, I'm trying to expand your point of view beyond Smash, in every other game the community holds no power in deciding how the game is played because the devs set it. I'm saying that's probably for the better because to this day there are still dissenters of Melee's rules, of Brawl's rules, of PM's rules and of 4's rules.

In games such as Killer Instinct, Street Fighter, Guilty Gear, etc, the stages are all the same outside of aesthetics. All are flat playing surfaces with no hazards, platforms, edges to fall from, etc. The end of each level allows for "wall combos," but there are certainly no obstructions that could potentially alter the outcome of a match such as super low ceilings on Delfino in Smash 4 or bombs and lasers on Halberd in Minus.

In Smash64, the competitive community evolved to only allow Dreamland; though they started out allowing stages as absurd as Hyrule Castle with its tornadoes. In Melee, they evolved to only allow the 6 most neutral stages; they started out playing on anything from crazy transitioning stages such as Pokefloats and Rainbow Cruise. (I won't speak on Brawl because I literally never enjoyed watching it competitively, so I don't have the knowledge to comment on it). In PM, there are levels that have hazards such as the Thwomps on Bowser's Castle, and the transitioning version of Castle Siege is selectable, but you never saw those legal in competitive play. In Smash 4, the early meta allowed Delfino, Castle Siege, and Halberd...but again, we've seen that end at majors. Regardless of what variation of stages a list allows as starters and counter picks, the competitive scene of a Smash title always trims out the more hazardous, dynamic stages for the benefit of competitive play.

When you cut out stages with stage hazards and transitions, you eliminate any possibility of the match's outcome being determined by something other than the players; which is exactly how it is in KI, SF, and every other competitive fighter. The stages allowed as starters or counter picks isn't as relevant as the characteristics of the stages. [though you'd still like the "most neutral" stages to be the starters, or you can have an odd numbered list so that the players can just strike out every single stage until only 1 remains] As long as all stages are free of hazards and transitions, the TO is providing his players with the most neutral playing field possible in a Smash title; though no stage is truly neutral in Smash, the players have the chance to keep it as neutral as possible thanks to stage banning.

 

[Thor]

This argument is dumb. A ban of stages [or allowing them] is discrete and enforceable, and the only argument is on whether it's warranted. You can't find a compelling argument for legalizing Temple [maybe there is one but it falls apart when you look at what Fox does on the stage], but you can find arguments for and against various stages. One of the arguments against including PS2 and Spear Pillar in the same list is not even that either stage is unsuitable for competitive play [on their own, each is a perfectly useable stage] - the problem is stage list balance [we don't want to skew the stage list toward characters that like longer stages with two side platforms and no top platforms].

Street Fighter does best of 3 for a single round but they do best of 3 sets [or best of 5 in top 8s/at a certain point in bracket until the end IIRC] because that's considered a better measure of skill. And they don't have stage bans or whatever because all stages are identical. Furthermore, people are allowed to force the stage to be Training Room [a static background] if they do not want to go to a stage with more occurring in the background.

Your argument manages to beg the question with an argument from authority in assuming that the dev team knows what is best for competition. Most people use default settings because they work, but the dev team originally included Lavaville in the official recommended stagelist, and I'm sorry, but you will likely *never* sell me that Lavaville is a stage that is well-designed for competitive play [especially when the list was like 15 stages long or something, it's not like they said we only have 5 good stages and this is one of them] (their original stagelist was meant for people who want a competitive bent with the silliness of Minus still in the list from what I remember). Furthermore, the dev team has to make stages in Minus [or at least bring them over from Sakurai's game], which is something that doesn't happen in Street Fighter [it's just texture swaps, more or less].

And worse still for your argument [perhaps most damaging of all], Sakurai didn't make all the stages with serious 1v1 competition in mind - there's a reason on For Fun you have a low chance to see Temple or Great Cave Offensive [it might even be 0?], it's because Sakurai knows those are stages better suited to 5+ players. He made the stagelist with everyone in mind, so saying that we should be using all the dev-given stages is simply nonsense. We have to pick and choose what stages are best/most diverse/whatever criteria you want [it's frankly arbitrary and based on commonly-held assumptions, but I won't go into that] while still serving the purpose of a 1v1, and use those. This is why even when they include default Temple [I think it's supposed to be back in 4.0f?], it won't be a stage recommended on the legal-for-tournament stages, because it's not meant for that in the first place. Every stage in Street Fighter is identical which means they all work for tournament... that's just not the case in Minus and a bad analogy or outright dishonest to pretend otherwise.

As an aside, Hyrule Castle wasn't at all absurd in 64 because you couldn't tech the walls and the Tornado was really not that intrusive [keep in mind all aerials have 4 frames of landing lag when L-cancelled, equivalent to an autocancelled aerial in Minus, so it's not like you'd commit to Link dair, a tornado would spawn, and goodbye]. And most of Melee's stages really aren't neutral - the most neutral is probably Battlefield, and even then, the ledges can limit certain recoveries. They're just less polarizing [and recently some have pushed to ban PS because of how ridiculously good it is for spacies, although Marths have been getting more and more mileage from PS vs spacies which is I think part of why it's still legal].

 

[Neville]

You can't find a compelling argument for legalizing Temple [maybe there is one but it falls apart when you look at what Fox does on the stage]

If we're talking Minus, you can just point out that Sonic's Boost exist when it comes to this stage. As for the rest of your argument, if I'd gotten here sooner, I would have said pretty much the same thing with a lot more swearing. Tbh I don't think there should be a dev created stagelist. PM got away with one because they had several top level players and community leaders who playtest the game for hours in order to make sure everything is right. Minus does not have that option. I think it's interesting to note that every time a tournament thread is started, it ends up being a stagelist debate, at least to my knowledge.

 

[Thor]

If we're talking Minus, you can just point out that Sonic's Boost exist when it comes to this stage. As for the rest of your argument, if I'd gotten here sooner, I would have said pretty much the same thing with a lot more swearing. Tbh I don't think there should be a dev created stagelist. PM got away with one because they had several top level players and community leaders who playtest the game for hours in order to make sure everything is right. Minus does not have that option. I think it's interesting to note that every time a tournament thread is started, it ends up being a stagelist debate, at least to my knowledge.

The other funny thing is that the PMDT made a recommended stagelist, but they didn't come close to trying to enforce it. Lots of places use a different starter list [MN has constructed one that is Bowser's Castle Alt, Green Hill Zone, PS2, Smashville, and Battlefield], and even early in the 3.6b life, many regions either cut Castle Siege from the counterpicks or replaced it entirely.

When you offer up like 15 stages that are all theoretically workable if they were included alongside Smashville, Battlefield, and FD [which will basically always be legal], then there's a clear argument they would be legal in a 4 stage format, but when you put them all next to each other, stage redundancy and size differences means including them all is a recipe for an imbalanced stagelist [unless they make every stage with the knowledge in mind that they need to only make so many of a size/type of stage, and I doubt the dev team would try to do that]. The PMDT tried to work with that, but they also tried to include stages they liked or felt were well-made, and some of them just didn't really pan out with the general community. If people of the community want a different stagelist and can agree on a better one [for instance, one I made in a few minutes for MN Brawl Minus that with one change no one objected to], why would you demand everyone play on a different stage list? That's just asking for a lot of gentleman's agreements to the other stagelist, which defeats the point of the stagelist in the ruleset anyway.

 

[Pin Clock]

We do not enforce our ruleset outside of our own tournaments

the Break Sign tournaments use a different stagelist from ours

 

[willtheoct]

One problem I had with this tourney(my first netplay too) is that it seems everyone i have to play is sharing a PC with someone else, so I have to wait 30 minutes to play a set.

I was even seeded to round 2 so I wasn't able to play until 1hr 30 mins in

 

[Pin Clock]

One problem I had with this tourney(my first netplay too) is that it seems everyone i have to play is sharing a PC with someone else, so I have to wait 30 minutes to play a set.

I was even seeded to round 2 so I wasn't able to play until 1hr 30 mins in

We understand this issue, and will place a limit on sharing sets next tournament to reduce this issue. We hope you enjoy the rest of this tournament, and enter the next one!

 

[Bent 00]

Nice tournament stream. Can't wait to see Pichu's Thunder Nerfed, though -- the constant barrage of "CHUU"s was annoying! I suggest making the Jump Cancel window open later, and making the Thunder bolt hit and affect Pichu the same way Thunder hits and affects Pikachu. It shouldn't be so easy to spam.

I think Wario's B-Air should be Nerfed too, since it currently overshadows the rest of his moveset. Wario is currently "B-Air the Character". I'm guessing that there's no way to make his Crates less likely to be turned against him... Perhaps that move should be re-worked. How about making it a Ground Pound instead?

The new costumes revealed at the end are good. Classic Meta Knight is great, Sonic's are unique (Cheeto fingers, ha), and Snake's are well done too. I think the Blue and Green ones would look better if his vest matched the camo more, like the Red costume's vest does. The Green one may benefit from more green and less brown/tan. Next, how about adding two new taunts, and the Walking Box?

Last of all, I tried asking this at the end of the interview, but I guess everyone was too tired to answer -- are the "Taunts = Footstool" code by Magus and the accompanying code by ds22 still set to be included in 4.0f? If so, which TYPE did you decide on?

 

[Joeybeta]

Can't wait to see Pichu's Thunder Nerfed, though

I think Wario's B-Air should be Nerfed too

I'm VERY sure those two have been a given for the past couple months already(thank RisaLulu for putting Wario on the map for that). This tournament just showcased these "issues" very well. I don't think jump canceling is much of the problem as much as being limited to being able to DI from Thunder in a set direction related to where Pichu is/(isn't?) facing, though jump canceling could be tweaked gently enough I could say.

 

[Destructo]

i am veri confuse



CUD AI GET A VID OF THESE COSTUMES P13A5E

 

[Bent 00]

CUD AI GET A VID OF THESE COSTUMES P13A5E

Here's a picture:

And here's a link to the video.