My Vision for Minus

[Glyph]

Ok, so there's been a plethora of drama bombs going off while I've been doing other stuff. They manifest in a lot of different ways, personal attacks, concerns about the BRoom's effectiveness, people feeling in the dark, all that mess.

I think there's a common problem at the core of all this confusion though. I don't think we have a unified vision of what minus IS. That's a really nebulous statement I know, so let me break it down a little more. In the short time I've poked around here since my absence I've seen calls for changes to gravity, hitstun, and character moves just off the top of my head. These desires reflect an underlying discontent with minus as is (obv, if you want to change something it's because you feel it's not meeting your standards).

This mentality at this late stage in a mod's life is not really something that I find acceptable. At this point, you're no longer solving problems (and therefore moving towards a real end goal), you're changing things for the sake of changing them. There's no real call for such radical differences, in fact stuff like that will only serve to alienate the players who have come to be accustomed to how things have been since the very beginning of minus.

BIG POINT NUMBER ONE: STOP CHANGING THINGS JUST CUZ WOULDN'T THAT BE NEAT IF IT WAS DIFFERENT.

Tying into something I touched on in the last section, I recall a post Pin made in the whole Kien v. Pin superfight thread along the lines of 'hey but that's just how the beta is going'. I'm paraphrasing really hard, but the thing I want to get at is that it was referred to as a 'beta'.

BIG POINT NUMBER TWO: WE HAVEN'T BEEN IN 'BETA' FOR LIKE OVER A YEAR AND NEED TO DITCH THAT MENTALITY.

All that kind of labeling does is serve as a copout for when things don't quite work right. No big, we'll get it in the next update right? People seem to forget that for a large community, 2.x.6 was considered the FINAL product. End of minus, here's what you get. I think pushing forward has led to some of the most spectacular developments in minus history, but it's come at a very high price as well. Of course my understanding is also that 4.0 is to be the final update to the game and that would rectify all of this.

That last bit was a pretty organic transition but I don't know how to do it for this one deal with it.

BIG POINT NUMBER TRES: CRASHING AT EVEN A SEMI-CONSISTENT LEVEL IS UNACCEPTABLE.

Brawlex has been the biggest blessing/curse we've run into. With it has come the ability to add new characters (which is one of the few territories for true experimentation left in my opinion) but also brought instability out the butt. I can remember trying so many times to get past the 3.Q logo that I'd just stop trying to play and go do something else. If 4.0, with all its new bells and whistles cannot be loaded consistently I would HIGHLY recommend a version that WILL. Cut the new characters (sacrilege I know and give people the option of a version that is guaranteed to be dependable. That way the playerbase has more control over what happens in their own game, instead of 'hey cross your fingers we can even play this game today.'

Ok brace yourselves for this one, lots of you won't like it.

BIG POINT NUMBER FOUR: NOT EVERY OPINION IS EQUAL.

A big problem in this community is that EVERYONE thinks they know what's best for their character. And why shouldn't they? With such a small sample size it doesn't take a lot to be THE standout ____ player. That makes it really hard to hear when the BRoom (or even within the BRoom itself) says 'no, that's not right and not happening.' Most of the time when that 'no' comes down, people instead of letting go and respecting that call latch onto the point because damnit they know best come on.

It's time for a reality check. Not every member here deserves a say in how the game is balanced. This is not a democracy, and just because you really really think something would be better X way does not mean it actually would be. That's why the BRoom needs to exist; to be the people who can make those tough calls. The BRoom itself has a problem since it's hard to define what qualifies someone to be on board, and really coding ability and balance ability do not correlate at all yet those guys get free passes by necessity. That's not really an issue I want to get into the meat of since it's not really anything I can speak for though. The point is, the BRoom is in charge. I think it's a wonderful move to keep you guys more involved, but their say is final for a reason.

FINAL CONCLUSION: OH GOD I'M WRITING BIG POSTS ABOUT MINUS AGAIN WHAT HAPPENED.

This game is heading into its final stages, and that fact needs to be more tangible. The time for major character overhauls has pretty much come and pass outside of general balancing, and I don't feel that is being reflected as well as it could be. The system's not perfect, but at this point it's what we've got and it's going to have to be good enough.

Ok yeah. That's my perspective.

 

[Thor]

Will reply to this later. Have a paper to write and a busy week ahead, but when I have some free time available I DEFINITELY want to put in my thoughts on this.

 

[NEWB]

I haven't made a big deal about but I have said that before on these forums. That one of minus' problems is that it has a different meaning to many people. Way to point that out again!

I will say that the beta mentality only needs to be maintained if there is stuff to work on. If the game is really coming to completion, then the beta mentality does need to be dropped.

 

[Thor]

Ok, so there's been a plethora of drama bombs going off while I've been doing other stuff. They manifest in a lot of different ways, personal attacks, concerns about the BRoom's effectiveness, people feeling in the dark, all that mess.

I think there's a common problem at the core of all this confusion though. I don't think we have a unified vision of what minus IS. That's a really nebulous statement I know, so let me break it down a little more. In the short time I've poked around here since my absence I've seen calls for changes to gravity, hitstun, and character moves just off the top of my head. These desires reflect an underlying discontent with minus as is (obv, if you want to change something it's because you feel it's not meeting your standards).

This last part is not quite correct. For instance, I'm not discontent with Falcon's current neutral B or his usmash, but I think they could be better and fit better with what I think of as Minusy. I'm not going to complain if they're not in though, I'm just trying to think of ways to make Minus as amazing as possible.

I think people have different visions of what Minus is, so I'll describe mine below later.

This mentality at this late stage in a mod's life is not really something that I find acceptable. At this point, you're no longer solving problems (and therefore moving towards a real end goal), you're changing things for the sake of changing them. There's no real call for such radical differences, in fact stuff like that will only serve to alienate the players who have come to be accustomed to how things have been since the very beginning of minus.

Again, I'm trying to think of things that could make it as amazing as possible. I'll try to explain why people.

BIG POINT NUMBER ONE: STOP CHANGING THINGS JUST CUZ WOULDN'T THAT BE NEAT IF IT WAS DIFFERENT.

Tying into something I touched on in the last section, I recall a post Pin made in the whole Kien v. Pin superfight thread along the lines of 'hey but that's just how the beta is going'. I'm paraphrasing really hard, but the thing I want to get at is that it was referred to as a 'beta'.

BIG POINT NUMBER TWO: WE HAVEN'T BEEN IN 'BETA' FOR LIKE OVER A YEAR AND NEED TO DITCH THAT MENTALITY.

All that kind of labeling does is serve as a copout for when things don't quite work right. No big, we'll get it in the next update right? People seem to forget that for a large community, 2.x.6 was considered the FINAL product. End of minus, here's what you get. I think pushing forward has led to some of the most spectacular developments in minus history, but it's come at a very high price as well. Of course my understanding is also that 4.0 is to be the final update to the game and that would rectify all of this.

That last bit was a pretty organic transition but I don't know how to do it for this one deal with it.

This differs from my mentality [that is, there was never an explicit statement "4.0 is the final product" so I didn't think it would be.] Especially since we (probably) have a new character incoming [and a massive overhaul to one], I'd hate to see the dev team just say "tough". I'd honestly think 5.0 could be an endgoal [4.3, 4.6, 5.0, or even just 4.5 and 5.0], but unless we're just not adding anything new and the dev team is thoroughly convinced new Pichu fits perfectly, 4.0 isn't [and shouldn't be viewed as] an end product in my opinion.

BIG POINT NUMBER TRES: CRASHING AT EVEN A SEMI-CONSISTENT LEVEL IS UNACCEPTABLE.

Brawlex has been the biggest blessing/curse we've run into. With it has come the ability to add new characters (which is one of the few territories for true experimentation left in my opinion) but also brought instability out the butt. I can remember trying so many times to get past the 3.Q logo that I'd just stop trying to play and go do something else. If 4.0, with all its new bells and whistles cannot be loaded consistently I would HIGHLY recommend a version that WILL. Cut the new characters (sacrilege I know and give people the option of a version that is guaranteed to be dependable. That way the playerbase has more control over what happens in their own game, instead of 'hey cross your fingers we can even play this game today.'

I have never struggled past the loadup screens - I get the strap freeze [or whatever it is when stage builder doesn't boot correctly] maybe 10% of the time [less frequently if I'm only loading Minus, more if I'm swapping between it and PM or vBrawl Wi-Fi], but the other freezes are frankly something I've NEVER experienced [I've experienced Olimar and Samus ones, but boot-up problems beyond the ones I've described don't occur].

I think that's part of the problem - some have the issue, some don't. Perhaps the solution is to make two versions [one with Pichu and Roy as well, and one without], but [this sounds super selfish but I don't care] I hate to not be able to play Pichu and Roy because of other people not having Wiis that work for whatever reason, ESPECIALLY since the dev team already put so much time into both characters.

Ok brace yourselves for this one, lots of you won't like it.

BIG POINT NUMBER FOUR: NOT EVERY OPINION IS EQUAL.

A big problem in this community is that EVERYONE thinks they know what's best for their character. And why shouldn't they? With such a small sample size it doesn't take a lot to be THE standout ____ player. That makes it really hard to hear when the BRoom (or even within the BRoom itself) says 'no, that's not right and not happening.' Most of the time when that 'no' comes down, people instead of letting go and respecting that call latch onto the point because damnit they know best come on.

It's time for a reality check. Not every member here deserves a say in how the game is balanced. This is not a democracy, and just because you really really think something would be better X way does not mean it actually would be. That's why the BRoom needs to exist; to be the people who can make those tough calls. The BRoom itself has a problem since it's hard to define what qualifies someone to be on board, and really coding ability and balance ability do not correlate at all yet those guys get free passes by necessity. That's not really an issue I want to get into the meat of since it's not really anything I can speak for though. The point is, the BRoom is in charge. I think it's a wonderful move to keep you guys more involved, but their say is final for a reason.

I am of the opinion that everyone has a right to voice their opinion, and to be told why that opinion won't happen. I'm more than willing to state why I think some changes are dumb [the flying wall of death that is SFWP just misses the point... and all I want is aerial to not be suicide, which is apparently too much to ask, despite even rest not being suicidal <_<]. So sure, not everyone gets to see every change they want (unless they can code, then make your own build and go nuts!), but I think if a lot of people genuinely like an idea, that idea should at least be refuted with whatever logic the BR has, instead of just ignored - it does alienate people for no reason when an explanation would be sufficient.

FINAL CONCLUSION: OH GOD I'M WRITING BIG POSTS ABOUT MINUS AGAIN WHAT HAPPENED.

This game is heading into its final stages, and that fact needs to be more tangible. The time for major character overhauls has pretty much come and pass outside of general balancing, and I don't feel that is being reflected as well as it could be. The system's not perfect, but at this point it's what we've got and it's going to have to be good enough.

Ok yeah. That's my perspective.

Here's my vision of Minus, take it or leave it... I only thought of this after others discussed visions of minus or whatever, so it's not terribly polished, but...

Every character has a moveset that fully fits their character, and every move is basically as useful as possible. Once we have accomplished that, we balance around what we have, making moves worse in functionality only if necessary.

What does this mean? It means I had a clear logic in mind when suggesting 64 Falcon usmash and Falcon punch. Is current usmash a fine move? Yes, and I think almost no one will argue that. But could we make it better? I think so. Might it be too good? Yes, BUT IF SO, we work around it [see if other characters need better moves or better angles, or if we need to tweak the angle so it can be DI'd easier in one direction, or even ultimately get rid of the move and replace it with old usmash again]. I've had some ideas for his uthrow, but am not sure if they can be done or are a good idea (and I'd hate for them to say, "no to other cool stuff, but we'll tweak uthrow, k?")

I'd also argue we've already done this - a lot. Lucario counter too good? Only at high percents is it instant, maybe add sparkles, change cancels. Falco honestly feels in a position fully in-line with this [I want his ftilt not minus on hit at low percents vs Bowser, hence my desire for higher bkb, and I wanted dtilt more useful at all percents, given its short range, thus my desire to see it have higher BKB], but if he never received changes again, he'd be fine (uthrow would bug me a little, but his other throws are all useful]. Outside of Fox uthrow issues I have, Fox fits this too, as does Wolf and Sheik. Indeed, I think those 5 characters, as of now, have movesets they are basically about as useful as possible in line with character design, and now just require tweaking to be more fair and fun [not sure, but Marth, Luigi, and Pit I think fit this as well to a lot of people].

That's why I've been wanting to see some changes - my changes aren't "hey this would be cool because different", but "hey this would be cool because more useful, then we balance around it." I had wanted every character to feel like they have a smooth, well thought-out, highly functional moveset, where almost nothing needs to be explained as "yeah it could be more useful, but it was mostly like that in Brawl" [except Fox because Fox, and even then, we've improved much of his moveset anyway], but everything is "either too broken [unable to be balanced around] or we felt this is better/there isn't really a good alternative that fits the character [ex: how to change Wolf flash doesn't really make sense since it is really useful, fits the character well already, and there isn't some other sensical move to put in its place]."

That's my thoughts on the matter.

 

[Glyph]

That's a big difference in our views there. I see Brawl Minus as something that should be true to it's origins and you're more looking to push it into unique territory. Neither one is necessarily right or wrong, but deciding that is a very important call that needs to be made.

 

[Thor]

That's a big difference in our views there. I see Brawl Minus as something that should be true to it's origins and you're more looking to push it into unique territory. Neither one is necessarily right or wrong, but deciding that is a very important call that needs to be made.

By true to its origins do you mean true to 2.x.6, true to BPC's original ideas, true to Brawl, or what?

 

[Glyph]

True to a concept of taking a character's already established brawl moveset and make it super broken in a way that will feel organic and familiar to a brawl player of said character. There's not any particular version of minus I would really cite as one that got it exactly right, ideally there would be some taken from across the board.

 

[Thor]

True to a concept of taking a character's already established brawl moveset and make it super broken in a way that will feel organic and familiar to a brawl player of said character. There's not any particular version of minus I would really cite as one that got it exactly right, ideally there would be some taken from across the board.

Does this mean you want to revert any moves not Brawl to their Brawl versions [ex: Lucario counter, no taunt hitboxes except Luigi, Wario up+b and down+b, etc.]? If so, I think we'll just agree to disagree there, since I like a lot of those changes and think they were positive steps for Minus [Wario Waft whenever you want was one of my favorite changes in basically all of Minus].

 

[Glyph]

Some yes some no, it's not a completely black and white subject just very much leaning one way between the two. Wario I personally prefer with his old up-b and down-b, but things like Lucario's counter are different. Best example I can think of is Olimar's new side-b, where the move is fundamentally still the same but has some new flavor to it to make things interesting.

 

[Kien]

Coming straight from the superfight thread (Don't know if you read that yet, but you can see it wasn't exactly me trying to take his place if you had) to state that I indeed mentioned the lack of a unified vision multiple times. That's part of why I want new leadership for Minus. In the discussions that I've had there are a few things that make minus what it is outside of somewhat overpowered movesets, and those things are: Unique character designs/mechanics, interesting stages, and a greater sense of balance than the other smash mods. I do believe that Minus is more balanced than P:M or Vbrawl.

In the unique character designs I'd like to point out a few characters who stand out notably when compared to the rest, although I do think that some tweaks are needed to perfect them. Tweaks that will likely never get into the game.

Bowser- Made into a tanky grappler with a surprisingly solid air game and armor all around. With his signatures seemingly being royal rampage and galactic crusher, it makes sense for those moves which are slow and predictable grabs to have armor. It does not however make sense nor feel fair for him to have armor on the majority of his moveset. That forces a style of grab heavy counter play and while he is fun to play as, he isn't nearly as fun to fight when you can't send him flying because all he needs to do is crouch to avoid being launched. It's also horrible that his side smash has armor AND a dodge fake out which makes it completely safe unless you commit to the attack and miss, which never has to happen given his options. In other words, Bowser is a lot of good ideas put into one character which makes it not so much of a good idea though he is changed for the better overall.

Sheik- Minus sheik is pretty much "ninja" the character. She vanishes all over the place and is easy to kill when you can actually hit her. She isn't that powerful but a skilled Sheik can combo out the wazoo to negate that weakness. She works as a proper combo character should and all of her moveset is useful in one way or another. Her design is fine, but her issue lies in the fact that she's too hard to fight since she has such low endlag on every one of her attacks. In layman's terms, she's too safe for most characters to punish.

Charizard- It's always said that he doesn't only have 5 attacks, however it's known that he can win matches for days using only his best moves. He has some of the most damaging moves in Minus as well as the easiest KO moves for practically every situation. An issue with Nair, fair, rock smash, down throw, and blast burn make him extremely easy to pick up and win with. I'm not arguing that characters with little skill required shouldn't be in a game, but the easy mode character should never be among the most effective. His setup ability is faster and more effective than most characters and he can camp with the best of them. Combined with his high damage output, it makes him strangely hard to defeat without counter picking him.

Ike- Ike is an example of a character who was already solid, and kept getting more things added onto him. Eventually standing on the boundary between Minus and different game entirely, some people now think he has too much while others are fine with his new additions. Having a unique mechanic of getting buffs for being offensive with his sword (reaching NSM discourages grab spam and jab canceling) set him apart from the rest and seemed somewhat too good. Get stronger for winning is basically what it amounted to. Not as bad as it sounds like, but it makes an Ike who's already in the lead pretty hard to defeat. Overall it isn't a bad thing for Ike, but having NSM give him so many buffs (shield damage, sword damage, heatwaves, faster attacks, and supers) takes away from the focus of what Ike is supposed to be according to some.

Falco- I think Falco is a really well designed character in most areas. My only problem is that he seems completely reliant on pillaring and camping. Outside of dair combos and lasers he doesn't have much. I think a small decrease to his pillaring damage would give him room to KO in other ways. Not suggesting anything of course, as many people like his linear (everyone play falco this way) approach.

Getting on to the interesting stages... Minus has always had a pretty diverse stage roster over the years. In a game where the fighters are much more even the stages can afford to be more diverse since they aren't offering hazards that are as difficult to deal with. Stages like Yoshi's Island Minus and Distant Planet Minus offered a nice change of pace that I'd like to see come back. Having a good blend of competitive and noncompetitive stages has always been what I enjoyed in a Smash game and Minus has enough unique levels (and a creative enough stage guy to make more) to where we could have a very nice stagelist. Stages with hazards can be okay so long as they aren't all intrusive like the Magicant.. Stages like Big Blue, Onett and Vbrawl Norfair offer fun in their own ways by having mechanics that are equally advantageous and centered more around awareness than screwing up the players.

I don't think I really need to touch on balance much since we all know there are really only 4 or 5 characters who are questionably OP.

 

[Glyph]

Sheik, Zard, Falco, and Ike are all good examples of characters that a brawl main could pick up and immediately perform well with (sans Ike's whole super move thing which I believe is on its way out?). Sheik is faster but fair is still fair, bair is still bair, etc. She gets a lot of new tricks but they stem from the core that was already in place.

Same goes for Zard. Fair is still your spacing tool, just now on steroids. Other than one particular move everything is exactly what you'd think it would be.

But lets talk about the one that isn't, Charizard (and Bowser's) neutral B moves. Surely if those moves were changed, it sets a precedent for others to follow, right?

Wrong. Those moves were not changed for the sake of how cool the improvements would be. They were changed because the default moves were problematic. Flamethrower at the ledge had little to no counterplay, it just racked up a ton of free damage to anyone unlucky enough to get caught on ledge. That, and that fact ALONE, is what justified investigating alternate moves.

 

[Fivavoa]

i feel that minus has such a vague concept to work with it's difficult to really say what can be the best for it.

"make everyone overpowered to the point that nobody is" suggests many things, it could've suggested making everyone meta knight tier, it could've suggested crazy explosions happening at all times and hitboxes the size of entire stages, etc. it's a concept with no theme, an idea with no base, brawl minus as it is right now is simply just brawl extended edition. characters have more freedom to do things, characters have extra moves depending on context sensitivity, stages are more accustomed to the game's design than just there because reasons.
it's basically what the concept of balanced brawl is, less focusing on just bringing what they have up to snuff with characters more formidable, and more towards expanding their ideas as fighters in the game they're in. i'm not suggesting minus does this perfectly however, much like p:m it does fall back on giving characters a focus on very gimmicky moves as opposed to reinventing the entire character while still keeping in contact with their brawl forms like glyph suggests.
in addition, it's very accessible and easy to get into unlike p:m or melee, the skill floor is extremely low since everyone has every opportunity to basically do anything, so if minus in it's current form is anything it's an expansion pack of what brawl is, with extra characters, tons of balancing, and extra hidden details and abilities for a decent chunk of characters.

while that doesn't sound very overpowered, broken, or stupid, it's the path minus has chosen to take. and in recent years it's been slowly fading away from what people originally thought it's core idea was in replacement of trying to keep up with p:m. the worst part is that it doesn't really feel like it's trying to keep consistent with brawl or melee, unlike p:m. p:m has a straightforward goal that is very easy to understand. the goal is a "balanced melee" in a sense, while taking inspiration from other entries in the series. it focuses on the game as a fighting game, but at the same time they have to keep limitations as not to completely make all the familiar characters foreign to those used to them from the official iterations.
brawl minus doesn't have any of this besides the fact that it's just brawl characters except "stronger", and although it does take inspiration from past iterations sometimes, and from the games the cast members come from, it barely has any consistency to what it wants to do or where it wants to go.

obviously things are still ridiculous, it's still ridiculous that offstage is a joke, it's still ridiculous that characters like ganon can shoot suns from his fists, but it's a toned down kind of ridiculous to very few characters, and from an outsider/spectator perspective, unless you show off those very few instances of ridiculousness, it doesn't look or feel any different from brawl gameplay.
to me, minus almost feels like smash 4, it has a similar kind of pace, similar kind of moves, similar kind of physics; the transition from playing minus to 4 was almost seamless until the heavy focus on defense in 4 started being more prominent.

there is no clear theme or motivation on what minus "is", there was once upon a time where a base was at least "prominent" and that was back when everyone had ms paint drawings and wacky end animations. it felt like it was just an exaggerated brawl, the theme was clear, the idea was realized, everything was stupid and over-the-top and easily identifiable from vbrawl or p:m. an identity.

and that just isn't here anymore, while i do understand that people want to push this mod into a more competitive scene, which is why i mentioned before that minus these days is trying really hard to keep up with p:m, there isn't anything absolutely special about minus as it currently is to really boast about what it can do or what it's capable of. i recall in the stream someone mentioning that most things in this mod feel very "brawl vault" like, and it does very much feel that way to me as well. its nothing special, so far at most it all feels like novelty and if it wasn't for how accessible and neatly packaged everything is, i personally wouldn't find a reason to play it in the first place.
p:m on the other hand, people can easily understand when they ask about it that it's just "melee 2.0" or "brawl if it was designed like melee" a very clear cut explanation for those curious about it, and those interested. fans of melee will like it, and fans of brawl might want to see what it's like in case they missed out on melee. casually it's tons faster than brawl, more characters, and etc while competitively it can go so much deeper.

looking down on this "wackiness" and "craziness" for the sake of trying to appeal to a similar crowd isn't really what something like this warrants, when you explain it to someone and it's gonna have shit like "l-cancelling", "wave dashing", etc, they just wonder what the point of the effort is if p:m already exists. "an easier p:m" won't get minus absolutely anywhere, and while i'm not really suggesting that minus is absolutely forcing themselves to just be "another melee brawl mod", what it's doing now doesn't really do anything outside of the norm besides some nice quirks here and there and easier gameplay.

what minus needs is to find consistency again, and while some devs have shown interest in bringing back a little bit of wack, i highly doubt it'll be enough for it to give minus an identity again outside of "a bunch of crazy character changes". it needs to be pushed into a unified idealism, it needs a theme, and it NEEDS to match with what the title suggests or is trying to achieve. either that or just drop "minus" in the title entirely and just say you're going for something else with brawl; brawl extended, new smash bros brawl, smash bros friday night fisticuffs, anything else as a fork or something, because it ain't minus.
trying to make minus competitive and deeper is fine, but that doesn't mean you have to drag it down to melee standards, as far as i'm aware brawl hacking has a lot of potential and to just do a bunch of the same things everyone else can and is doing seems utterly pointless. i played minus for the wackiness and sheer fun, and i'm still around because i truly believe it has potential to be so much more than what it is or what it's trying to be. it can go far, and be as fierce of a competitor deserving to be part of the platformer fighting game genre as p:m and the rest of the smash games are.

 

[Gold_TSG]

What minus lacks is a theme for the entire mod to follow strictly by. "Break everything" is a very vague theme because everyone's idea of broken is different, and the mod still needs to be fun for everyone. PM has a theme: Melee. They've created much to reflect that game, as well as experiment within reason on many chars to make them more viable.
This is what minus seems to do wrong most of the time.

 

[Greatest_Aether]

smash bros friday night fisticuffs

This.

 

[Neville]

This.

That should be a weekly event.