My thoughts on the cast. (Pastebin)
- Thread starter Malkasaur
- Start date
A few comments.
Mario - Expert Ledge Guarding with Down B Fludd, Side B Cape, Neutral B Fireballs, Aerials and Vertical Recovery potential.
Luigi- Cancel-able dash is good combo starter into down smash/down tilt/grab. Up tilt and down B combo for a Up B kill.
Bowser - He is a freaking tank.
Yoshi - Invincibility frames during jumps help protect from meteors. Grabs have ridiculous range and priority.
Flaco - OP, his Down Air is inescapable. His recovery is the best in the game, highest vertical Up B.
IC - Aerials have great priority. D Air is great but annoying.
Charizard - Side B rock smash is extremely spammable. Down grab has great kill potential with knockback.
Pichu - Same dude
Pikachu - Great down B meteor. Can juggle opponents with B Air and kill with N air. Rack up damage with Neutral A and keep opponent form teching with Up air.
JigglyPuff - Up air to rest combo is great. UP B IS STRAIGHT BULLSHIT. The range is ridiculous and it needs to be nerfed. Neutral B is cancel-able into rest.
Lucario - DOWN B is spammable out the ass. I HATE LUCARIO. Top tier no doubt.
Marth - Solid F air, Neutral B is cancel-able in the air. Long grab range like Melee.
Captain Falcon - So fun to play. Knee of justice is perfect. Up tilt over edge is great meteor. Combo king.
Donkey Kong - Powerful moves. B air combo is great. Tilt speed makes up for lack of speed. Recovery is underrated (can get out of almost any meteor).
Ganon - Extremely powerful moves. F Smash range is huge. Slow and Recovery is crap.
Great List. Toon Link, Zelda, Sheik, Pitt, Pichu, Fox, Wolf, and Squirtle are exactly what I was thinking.
Mario - Expert Ledge Guarding with Down B Fludd, Side B Cape, Neutral B Fireballs, Aerials and Vertical Recovery potential.
Luigi- Cancel-able dash is good combo starter into down smash/down tilt/grab. Up tilt and down B combo for a Up B kill.
Bowser - He is a freaking tank.
Yoshi - Invincibility frames during jumps help protect from meteors. Grabs have ridiculous range and priority.
Flaco - OP, his Down Air is inescapable. His recovery is the best in the game, highest vertical Up B.
IC - Aerials have great priority. D Air is great but annoying.
Charizard - Side B rock smash is extremely spammable. Down grab has great kill potential with knockback.
Pichu - Same dude
Pikachu - Great down B meteor. Can juggle opponents with B Air and kill with N air. Rack up damage with Neutral A and keep opponent form teching with Up air.
JigglyPuff - Up air to rest combo is great. UP B IS STRAIGHT BULLSHIT. The range is ridiculous and it needs to be nerfed. Neutral B is cancel-able into rest.
Lucario - DOWN B is spammable out the ass. I HATE LUCARIO. Top tier no doubt.
Marth - Solid F air, Neutral B is cancel-able in the air. Long grab range like Melee.
Captain Falcon - So fun to play. Knee of justice is perfect. Up tilt over edge is great meteor. Combo king.
Donkey Kong - Powerful moves. B air combo is great. Tilt speed makes up for lack of speed. Recovery is underrated (can get out of almost any meteor).
Ganon - Extremely powerful moves. F Smash range is huge. Slow and Recovery is crap.
Great List. Toon Link, Zelda, Sheik, Pitt, Pichu, Fox, Wolf, and Squirtle are exactly what I was thinking.
Thor
Well-Known Member
My thoughts and responses to people above:
1. Falco's reflector used to be really good. Now it's rather risky and only leads into stuff if you can land on top of someone with it, catch an airdodge/spotdodge, or are fighting Bowser. High-risk high reward. Lasers are kind of stupid but fast lasers are better in a lot of MUs if the opponent knows how to not let you set them up [Falcon, ZSS, etc.]
2. Priority doesn't exist. There's the law of high and low priority, and transcendent vs regular priority for ground moves, but saying Falcon's nair has priority is a meaningless statement. It may have a good combination of range and speed, but there isn't something about that you can quantify as saying "this has priority."
3. Falcon usmash is no faster than fsmash unless they sped it up. In Brawl usmash was frame 20, fsmash was frame 19, and dsmash was frame 22 IIRC. Unless they tweaked it, it's not that fast, he can just run and do it from really far away.
4. Sheik will be good in 4.0, but in 4.0b Vanish has no invincibility at all [mistake made by the dev team]. As a result, you can functionally snapback/2-frame her [Smash 4 thing]. Still really good, but her recovery is exploitable.
5. *dev teams reads Ganondorf's thing* B-b-but he has a one-hit KO move! us: *rolls eyes*
6. Kirby inhale has grab armor like other moves. So yeah, armor, but not something that should be very surprising.
7. If you've played BC, your suspicions about King Dedede would be confirmed.
8. Meta Knight can chain dairs to just KO people outright at extremely low percents because of the ridiculous IASA. That's getting patched, but right now he can do it even easier than Falco [Falco's lingering helps, but Falco doesn't have tornado to carry you over there].
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9. Sing is bad, or at best, situational. You can tech chase with it but it leaves her in enough lag that Captain Falcon can on reaction fullhop double jump Falcon Punch if he's slightly out of range. You fall asleep for a long time at least, but nerfing that move would be like nerfing Warlock Punch without a compensating buff.
10. I have ideas about how to deal with Falco's recovery but they're supposedly difficult to implement. Firebird is good but you can hit it out of the startup. What's sillier is that he can mix it up with his jumps and side+b, but he's supposed to do that and be good offstage [he prefers the air], just be glad Firebird was already nerfed from 3.Q.
11. Lingering hitboxes can help vs Lucario's counter - I believe Falco dair beats it out? Sheik nair likely does as well, but yeah it's rather obnoxious. I don't remember if it's instant at all percents or only starts being instant at later percents, but in MAX 1.00 it was instant at all percents. Good times...
12. I still wish the knee was weaker [at Melee strength], but for reasons that would make people want to buff it again [lel].
Olimar is generally considered pretty solid. Pikmin walls can be annoying and if his recovery isn't fixed, it will be in 4.0 [that is, up+B will not induce helplessness anymore].
1. Falco's reflector used to be really good. Now it's rather risky and only leads into stuff if you can land on top of someone with it, catch an airdodge/spotdodge, or are fighting Bowser. High-risk high reward. Lasers are kind of stupid but fast lasers are better in a lot of MUs if the opponent knows how to not let you set them up [Falcon, ZSS, etc.]
2. Priority doesn't exist. There's the law of high and low priority, and transcendent vs regular priority for ground moves, but saying Falcon's nair has priority is a meaningless statement. It may have a good combination of range and speed, but there isn't something about that you can quantify as saying "this has priority."
3. Falcon usmash is no faster than fsmash unless they sped it up. In Brawl usmash was frame 20, fsmash was frame 19, and dsmash was frame 22 IIRC. Unless they tweaked it, it's not that fast, he can just run and do it from really far away.
4. Sheik will be good in 4.0, but in 4.0b Vanish has no invincibility at all [mistake made by the dev team]. As a result, you can functionally snapback/2-frame her [Smash 4 thing]. Still really good, but her recovery is exploitable.
5. *dev teams reads Ganondorf's thing* B-b-but he has a one-hit KO move! us: *rolls eyes*
6. Kirby inhale has grab armor like other moves. So yeah, armor, but not something that should be very surprising.
7. If you've played BC, your suspicions about King Dedede would be confirmed.
8. Meta Knight can chain dairs to just KO people outright at extremely low percents because of the ridiculous IASA. That's getting patched, but right now he can do it even easier than Falco [Falco's lingering helps, but Falco doesn't have tornado to carry you over there].
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9. Sing is bad, or at best, situational. You can tech chase with it but it leaves her in enough lag that Captain Falcon can on reaction fullhop double jump Falcon Punch if he's slightly out of range. You fall asleep for a long time at least, but nerfing that move would be like nerfing Warlock Punch without a compensating buff.
10. I have ideas about how to deal with Falco's recovery but they're supposedly difficult to implement. Firebird is good but you can hit it out of the startup. What's sillier is that he can mix it up with his jumps and side+b, but he's supposed to do that and be good offstage [he prefers the air], just be glad Firebird was already nerfed from 3.Q.
11. Lingering hitboxes can help vs Lucario's counter - I believe Falco dair beats it out? Sheik nair likely does as well, but yeah it's rather obnoxious. I don't remember if it's instant at all percents or only starts being instant at later percents, but in MAX 1.00 it was instant at all percents. Good times...
12. I still wish the knee was weaker [at Melee strength], but for reasons that would make people want to buff it again [lel].
Olimar is generally considered pretty solid. Pikmin walls can be annoying and if his recovery isn't fixed, it will be in 4.0 [that is, up+B will not induce helplessness anymore].
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I play some of the characters you seem to have no clue about or are underrepresented so here's my post on some of those characters.
Peach: I've been a Minus Peach main for 2 years which is longer than 90% of the Minus scene. I hope to hell I've mastered everything she has, or at leat gotten close. She has a great item game, aerials with no landing lag (fair and bair) crazy kill power and solid combo game. She's not the best in the game but she is really good.
ZSS: ZSS is probably one of the more balanced characters in the game imo. She has really good , intricate, combos but they don't do as much damage as other characters have got. Dsmash, side-b and paralyzer are good for walling. A ZSS with a good item game is deadly.
Puff isn't explored very well because Fsmash is one of the best moves in the game. It kills, comboes into itself and other moves, covers large swathes of the stage, has little endlag, and is safe on shield if spaced properly. Farkus needs to work on his non-fsmash game because a successful Puff needs to actually use other moves sometimes. Puff can combo all her aerials into rest (yes all of them) with proper setups. Puff's gravity and sourspot nair murder anyone who doesn't have an amazing recover like the PK kids and Falcon.
I like to think I'm the best of these 3 characters around so I have some say in how good they are but we won't know until I have Netplay.
Peach: I've been a Minus Peach main for 2 years which is longer than 90% of the Minus scene. I hope to hell I've mastered everything she has, or at leat gotten close. She has a great item game, aerials with no landing lag (fair and bair) crazy kill power and solid combo game. She's not the best in the game but she is really good.
ZSS: ZSS is probably one of the more balanced characters in the game imo. She has really good , intricate, combos but they don't do as much damage as other characters have got. Dsmash, side-b and paralyzer are good for walling. A ZSS with a good item game is deadly.
Puff isn't explored very well because Fsmash is one of the best moves in the game. It kills, comboes into itself and other moves, covers large swathes of the stage, has little endlag, and is safe on shield if spaced properly. Farkus needs to work on his non-fsmash game because a successful Puff needs to actually use other moves sometimes. Puff can combo all her aerials into rest (yes all of them) with proper setups. Puff's gravity and sourspot nair murder anyone who doesn't have an amazing recover like the PK kids and Falcon.
I like to think I'm the best of these 3 characters around so I have some say in how good they are but we won't know until I have Netplay.
Kymaera K1ng
A PMCC player
IC's are incredibly underrated right now. They can still do infinites, but no one puts in the work to find them.
Plz plz plz describe them for testing or record them. I highly doubt this
Kymaera K1ng
A PMCC player
easiest one to describe is ice block loop, works around 80-145% on all character. grab with popo, ice block twice with nana. they will be put either in front or behind you in a flinch state, then you can grab them again. ill make a thread in a bit when i get my wii
Is it possible to mash/SDI out of?
Kymaera K1ng
A PMCC player
You can sdi behind popo i belive, but he can still turn around and grab you
Thor
Well-Known Member
ZSS can still carry people off the top - don't need a lot of damage for it either...
She seems balanced, but she'll carry you along for a while, and her down+b flip jump has extremely obnoxious hitboxes [or one version of it does].
After some practice it's possible to avoid the carry-you-off-the-top combos. I have no excuse for the flip kick or the cancel on it that shit is rediculous.