Thor
Well-Known Member
After playing at some more events and seeing more characters in use, there are a couple moves myself and some others agree need... something to make them fairer. The moves here aren't moves that necessarily piss someone off or whatever, they're moves everyone agrees universally go beyond merely being broken, but absurd and oftentimes anti-fun.
I'll list the move, the problem, and some suggestions for altering it. Other input is appreciated, and I don't expect all the suggested changes to made [heck, none of them might be made].
Input from others on potential solutions or other problematic moves is appreciated.
I'll list the move, the problem, and some suggestions for altering it. Other input is appreciated, and I don't expect all the suggested changes to made [heck, none of them might be made].
Lucario down+b: it causes Lucario to go invincible and invisible, then reappear a short time later.
Issues: automatic 50/50 on where you respawn (you can control where you come back into existence), will often trade with moves put out to beat it [you basically need a sword... it'll even trade with Falco dair, Fox nair, even Mach Tornado... and sword moves are usually not long-lasting to catch the move], and it's not affected by aura but will be. And oh yeah, it's safe on block because the move seems frame 1 [if it's not it's extremely close] so if you punish and miss [which happens even with fast characters because lol buffering makes doing it perfect easy], you're in lag and get hit by another one (and grab cancel!). And it combo breaks [frame 1 invincible? Better than airdodging!] on a character who's not super comboable. Ick.
Potential solutions:
- Negative disjoint (make the hitbox behind Lucario so that it loses cleanly to any lingering moves)
- More endlag [makes shielding a much more rewarding option vs the move, removes followup potential (does it really need to be a reversal move? combo-breaking and invulnerability as a counter is more than enough...)]
- Remove cancels [insufficient, as it's still extremely safe without a cancel, but it'll help]
- Slower startup [this was tried and failed, but it's not out of the question]
- Remove damage dealing and reduce endlag SLIGHTLY [annoying to watch him sneak away, but you won't die because you whiffed an upsmash, it still serves as a movement/escape option option]
Issues: automatic 50/50 on where you respawn (you can control where you come back into existence), will often trade with moves put out to beat it [you basically need a sword... it'll even trade with Falco dair, Fox nair, even Mach Tornado... and sword moves are usually not long-lasting to catch the move], and it's not affected by aura but will be. And oh yeah, it's safe on block because the move seems frame 1 [if it's not it's extremely close] so if you punish and miss [which happens even with fast characters because lol buffering makes doing it perfect easy], you're in lag and get hit by another one (and grab cancel!). And it combo breaks [frame 1 invincible? Better than airdodging!] on a character who's not super comboable. Ick.
Potential solutions:
- Negative disjoint (make the hitbox behind Lucario so that it loses cleanly to any lingering moves)
- More endlag [makes shielding a much more rewarding option vs the move, removes followup potential (does it really need to be a reversal move? combo-breaking and invulnerability as a counter is more than enough...)]
- Remove cancels [insufficient, as it's still extremely safe without a cancel, but it'll help]
- Slower startup [this was tried and failed, but it's not out of the question]
- Remove damage dealing and reduce endlag SLIGHTLY [annoying to watch him sneak away, but you won't die because you whiffed an upsmash, it still serves as a movement/escape option option]
Falco slow lasers: use a taunt, lasers slow way down
Issues: They're either mostly useless (a great bthrow buff, but bad vs fast characters) or crippling (vs slow characters like Ike). Very polarizing. SHDL also exerts obscene ledge pressure on basically everyone.
Potential solutions
- Remove slow lasers (RIP, but acceptable)
- Change slow lasers to be only grounded and fast lasers to be only airborne [throwback to when grounded lasers were buffed to be stronger than aerial ones... nerfs uthrow but uthrow is bad anyway, generally a bthrow buff, and removes the icky part of slow lasers while keeping them in as a useful but less gross ledge pressure tool (takes longer to set up and less difficult to break though or capitalize on). Also removes the need to taunt switch]
Issues: They're either mostly useless (a great bthrow buff, but bad vs fast characters) or crippling (vs slow characters like Ike). Very polarizing. SHDL also exerts obscene ledge pressure on basically everyone.
Potential solutions
- Remove slow lasers (RIP, but acceptable)
- Change slow lasers to be only grounded and fast lasers to be only airborne [throwback to when grounded lasers were buffed to be stronger than aerial ones... nerfs uthrow but uthrow is bad anyway, generally a bthrow buff, and removes the icky part of slow lasers while keeping them in as a useful but less gross ledge pressure tool (takes longer to set up and less difficult to break though or capitalize on). Also removes the need to taunt switch]
DownB
Issues: It's disjointed, which when coupled with her curling up, makes the move nearly impossible to contest [even moves like Falco dair from above and Fox bair from the side generally lose outright. You need a sword or you can't contest it]. It also has an autolink angle that can set up tech chases just for coming down with it, which isn't that bad, but the autolink makes it a spike offstage if you can use a mobility move to position yourself above someone (IIRC autolink spikes can't be meteor cancelled, and you either trade or just get dragged down). And it seems to have no landing lag, so it would seem an almost completely unpunishable landing option.
Potential solutions:
- Shrink hitboxes (would reduce disjoint, still be solid combo extender and okay landing option, bt not a go-to option that can't be contested)
- Remove hitboxes (more extreme, not really recommended, but the move could be buffed in other ways)
- Adjust KB to be weakly sideways [would make the move safer to contest and not setup automatic dsmashes on missed techs, and also remove the spiking power]
Issues: It's disjointed, which when coupled with her curling up, makes the move nearly impossible to contest [even moves like Falco dair from above and Fox bair from the side generally lose outright. You need a sword or you can't contest it]. It also has an autolink angle that can set up tech chases just for coming down with it, which isn't that bad, but the autolink makes it a spike offstage if you can use a mobility move to position yourself above someone (IIRC autolink spikes can't be meteor cancelled, and you either trade or just get dragged down). And it seems to have no landing lag, so it would seem an almost completely unpunishable landing option.
Potential solutions:
- Shrink hitboxes (would reduce disjoint, still be solid combo extender and okay landing option, bt not a go-to option that can't be contested)
- Remove hitboxes (more extreme, not really recommended, but the move could be buffed in other ways)
- Adjust KB to be weakly sideways [would make the move safer to contest and not setup automatic dsmashes on missed techs, and also remove the spiking power]
(??? People were split on this one) Pit grounded side+b: The lasso that charges forward. Shield(?) and grab cancellable.
Issues: Basically a command grab that's shield-cancellable because dodging the grab is unreliable or impossible. Safer on whiff than other command grabs.
Potential solutions:
- Do nothing [declare it to be a very safe command grab and leave it at that... or alternatively tell people to learn to not shield or shield DI the move (as hard as that is >_>)]
- Reduce damage or rehit rate on the whip (reduces shieldstun making it easier to spotdodge the grab or drop shield to take damage from the lasso and SDI away).
- add spotdodge/roll buffering [if you can escape the grab, this would make it much easier to avoid, but allow mixups on if you grab or if you shield and jump and chase the roll/spotdodge with other options]
Issues: Basically a command grab that's shield-cancellable because dodging the grab is unreliable or impossible. Safer on whiff than other command grabs.
Potential solutions:
- Do nothing [declare it to be a very safe command grab and leave it at that... or alternatively tell people to learn to not shield or shield DI the move (as hard as that is >_>)]
- Reduce damage or rehit rate on the whip (reduces shieldstun making it easier to spotdodge the grab or drop shield to take damage from the lasso and SDI away).
- add spotdodge/roll buffering [if you can escape the grab, this would make it much easier to avoid, but allow mixups on if you grab or if you shield and jump and chase the roll/spotdodge with other options]
Meta Knight neutral B: Mach Tornado. Low damage but carries people around. Combo extender, can push people off the sides.
Issues: Most handle it fine-ish, but some, like Peach, have almost nothing to contest Mach Tornado and lack the mobility options to move around it quickly (side+b has startup and defensive side+b is ehhhhh... never mind the potential whiff punishes on counters). Like Falco slow lasers, polarizing, although almost never a bad move.
Potential solutions:
- Make the move transcendent priority [it will never clank, meaning any hitbox that reaches MK will hit him... most jabs and tilts will trade, but trading with nado is almost always a damage-favorable trade to the opponent. Also makes it lose to all projectiles, not just some like lasers.]
- Random nado nerfs [more startup? more endlag? Don't know how to fix the move besides making it unclankable to encourage trades... it's almost okay, but then some characters just get kinda rekt by nado alone...]
Issues: Most handle it fine-ish, but some, like Peach, have almost nothing to contest Mach Tornado and lack the mobility options to move around it quickly (side+b has startup and defensive side+b is ehhhhh... never mind the potential whiff punishes on counters). Like Falco slow lasers, polarizing, although almost never a bad move.
Potential solutions:
- Make the move transcendent priority [it will never clank, meaning any hitbox that reaches MK will hit him... most jabs and tilts will trade, but trading with nado is almost always a damage-favorable trade to the opponent. Also makes it lose to all projectiles, not just some like lasers.]
- Random nado nerfs [more startup? more endlag? Don't know how to fix the move besides making it unclankable to encourage trades... it's almost okay, but then some characters just get kinda rekt by nado alone...]
Input from others on potential solutions or other problematic moves is appreciated.
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