BROKEN Recoveries of Brawl Minus

[Turk Injaydii]

What is the point of giving nearly everyone in the game an AMAZING recovery? Many can side-b as many times as they want and/or recovery from outside the camera's edge. This makes it so that ledge-guarding with many characters requires minimal commitment. Additionally, gimping is nearly impossible in this game because of how great everyone's recovery is. Bowser's recovery even goes EXTREMELY higher than anyone would expect.

I get that you guys are probably trying to be unique by making so many things "broken" in the game, but the recoveries and limited ledge-grab invincibility make for very wonky (and imo and some friends' opinions) unappealing off-stage play. Because everyone's recovery is excellent, it's hardly worth it to try and gimp off-stage opponents. And with the ridiculously low ledge-grab invincibility, it seems more worthwhile to camp ledge and try and get the timing down to hit opponents with moves RIGHT as the invincibility wheres off.

Not trying to nitpick, I love this game. Just giving some feed back to see if others share my opinion and to give you guys ideas of ways to make 4.0 the best game it can be! =]

 

[Thor]

I think edge guarding in the game is very doable, but it requires much more practice than in some other games because it takes a lot less to return to stage uncontested. I myself look to edgeguard frequently offstage because (as you mentioned) it is usually not too difficult to return to stage, and I enjoy that because it makes the offstage game more dynamic. I will state it is somewhat funny to me that you point out edge guarding is low risk but low reward... would that not be balanced?

The ledge thing is a good point, but you can (like in Smash 4) buffer some getup options to avoid the issue somewhat.

If there are specific recoveries you take issue with, they can certainly be brought up, but I think most recoveries are in a good spot. Some could arguably be toned down, but even if recoveries were nerfed, the edgeguard game would remain potent (especially if MK dair is not fully fixed), which might shift the focus a little more onto gimping than is probably intended or good for balance (Fox MK Sonic DDD Yoshi Lucario are mostly all agreed/thought to be amazing at edgeguarding or have highly rewarding options while edgeguarding, and they are all considered top or high tier already, so nerfing recoveries buffs them even more). But again, if you take issue with specific recoveries, listing them out would be helpful as a starting point.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

I will admit, my initial quarrels with the recoveries of this game were primarily due it being new to me. However, still some issues. Falco, Wolf, Fox, MK, and others have recoveries that are so good that they can make it back from nearly anywhere off stage. As Falco, I can expend a jump, side b from the edge of the stage toward the blast zone, and then make it back to stage.

Then there are characters like Squirtle, Ness, Lucas, Roy, etc who's recoveries pale in comparison to those mentioned previously.

What is the justification for poor recoveries in this game? In games such as Melee and Smash 4, Falco and Little Mac are glass canons because they have a commanding presence on stage and are balanced with poor recovery...but in Minus...everyone is great everywhere, lol. So why does Squirtle suck off stage, but Falco can get back from anywhere?

 

[Turk Injaydii]

^^^Can I get some feedback from a dev on this topic? There are some concerning inconsistencies regarding recoveries of this game.Thanks in advance for any insight on the subject. (I know this is a double post, just making another instead of editing so the new post appears in the news feed.)

 

[Pin Clock]

The only one who really sucks off stage in terms of recovery is Ness and that's because PK Thunder got nerfed too much. Everyone else has options to aid their recovery further

Squirtle can hold B while using waterfall to gain more height
Lucas has ATs like Zap Jump, reverse PK Fire to Magnet, etc
Roy has the fire fart and an UpB that isn't easy to stop.

As Thor said earlier, nerfing all recoveries mostly just makes characters who are already great at gimping even better at gimping, altering game balance tremendously.

 

[Thor]

I will admit, my initial quarrels with the recoveries of this game were primarily due it being new to me. However, still some issues. Falco, Wolf, Fox, MK, and others have recoveries that are so good that they can make it back from nearly anywhere off stage. As Falco, I can expend a jump, side b from the edge of the stage toward the blast zone, and then make it back to stage.

Then there are characters like Squirtle, Ness, Lucas, Roy, etc who's recoveries pale in comparison to those mentioned previously.

What is the justification for poor recoveries in this game? In games such as Melee and Smash 4, Falco and Little Mac are glass canons because they have a commanding presence on stage and are balanced with poor recovery...but in Minus...everyone is great everywhere, lol. So why does Squirtle suck off stage, but Falco can get back from anywhere?

If you ever force Fox below the ledge, he has mixups that involve walls, but up+B is tremendously gimpable, especially in this game with how fast characters are. Lingering hitboxes are your friend against side+b, and if you know how to go offstage with efficiency, a Firefox is a KO'd Fox, most of the time.

Falco is a bird, he naturally prefers the air. I have my own suggestions to make his recovery more interactive and dynamic [and also maybe to do cooler stuff onstage], but suffice to say if I hadn't pushed for it for at least 2 or 3 patches, Firebird would be even harder to interact with [in 3.Q the flames were massive and almost impossible to beat out with any non-projectile moves... and sure, maybe I'm not THE reason it got nerfed, but I was complaining about it in 3.3 when I both mained Falco and when no one else said anything about it, so I'm gonna say that change was due at least in part to me saying something]. As before, lingering hitboxes help vs side+b, and he can't jump-cancel it in air, only wall-jump cancel, so he has to fall a ways after using it if it won't reach ledge - that's your cue to punish him.

Wolf's recovery is kind of hilarious, I'll admit I'm no expert at gimping it, having played against few Wolf players [none outside of the ditto, I think], but I'm pretty sure it's just a matter of putting the right hitboxes in the right places. I think Fire Wolf may still have super armor, so I don't know what you'd do about that, but Wolf is also somewhat fragile [I don't know if his weight was nerfed from Brawl, but with his ridiculous fall speed he's delicious combo food regardless], so if you force him to use side+b you just need to hit him out of it or space around the extremely obvious aerial he'll use out of it. The recovery has predictable trajectories even if it goes a long distance.

MK is an air behemoth, but he's extraordinarily light. Not being realistically edgeguard-able by most of the cast is part of his design [see also: Jigglypuff - unless you feel everyone should be able to edgeguard Puff?], so just combo him into kill moves and watch him die at like 60.

The only one who really sucks off stage in terms of recovery is Ness and that's because PK Thunder got nerfed too much. Everyone else has options to aid their recovery further

Squirtle can hold B while using waterfall to gain more height
Lucas has ATs like Zap Jump, reverse PK Fire to Magnet, etc
Roy has the fire fart and an UpB that isn't easy to stop.

As Thor said earlier, nerfing all recoveries mostly just makes characters who are already great at gimping even better at gimping, altering game balance tremendously.

Weird suggestion... could we try making Ness's PSI-Magnet pop him upwards offstage? Kind of like a Marth side+b or Olimar neutral+B? Alternatively, is it possible to make Ness lose less height when he has to use the Reset Button [or whatever multiple up+Bs are called]?

 

[Neville]

Weird suggestion... could we try making Ness's PSI-Magnet pop him upwards offstage? Kind of like a Marth side+b or Olimar neutral+B? Alternatively, is it possible to make Ness lose less height when he has to use the Reset Button [or whatever multiple up+Bs are called]?

I actually like this because PSI magnet pops other people up which would make this an amazing combo move.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

Squirtle can hold B while using waterfall to gain more height
Lucas has ATs like Zap Jump, reverse PK Fire to Magnet, etc
Roy has the fire fart and an UpB that isn't easy to stop.

I was not aware that you could hold B to make waterfall gain more height! Thanks...Things like this are why it is so imperative that you guys provide updated character descriptions. *cough* UPDATE THE DANG CHARACTERS SECTION OF THE SITE!!!! *cough cough*

Additionally, what does "ATs" mean, and what's a Zap Jump *cough* update the character descriptions and your players wouldn't be ignorant *cough cough* lol

As Thor said earlier, nerfing all recoveries mostly just makes characters who are already great at gimping even better at gimping, altering game balance tremendously.

I addressed this statement by admitting my initial quarrels were primarily due to being new to the game. Soooo....yeah.

PS: the "cough cough" and caps are all meant jokingly, please don't think I'm being a jerk. Seriously though, I really do feel the character descriptions should be prioritized. PM's site was very inviting to new players because it formally introduced each character and thoroughly explained everything about the character that was added in PM.

You guys have arguably added even MORE to your characters. It would be very beneficial for new players, and consequently the growth of interest in Minus, if you all were able to update your site to have character introductions as well done as PM's.

 

[Pin Clock]

Zap Jump is a vBrawl technique, so it wouldn't be something shown on Lucas' Minus page.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

Zap Jump is a vBrawl technique, so it wouldn't be something shown on Lucas' Minus page.

Soooooooooooo......

What's a Zap Jump? And what does AT stand for? Somebody help a brotha out, lol

Also, can I get a straight answer from someone about when the character descriptions will be updated? The character intro videos are cool and all, but those are much harder to do than updating a webpage. And its very frustrating for new players when they don't have any updated information about the character they wish to play. In fact, that is the main gripe I hear from players. You guys already have barriers keeping players away by being a mod, and the less popular mod at that. I don't understand why you don't prioritize having an informative webpage about what your characters can do in the current build of the game to further entice potential players.

 

[Pin Clock]

Soooooooooooo......

What's a Zap Jump? And what does AT stand for? Somebody help a brotha out, lol

Zap Jump is where Lucas gains twice his jump height by imputting PK Fire and Jump in the air at the same time
AT=Advanced Technique

 

[Turk Injaydii]

Zap Jump is where Lucas gains twice his jump height by imputting PK Fire and Jump in the air at the same time
AT=Advanced Technique

Thank you! =]

Did you see the other question I added to my edit of the post you replied to? Is there a plan for updating the character descriptions? I would be much easier and faster than making everyone wait for each characters intro video.

 

[Pin Clock]

Thank you! =]

Did you see the other question I added to my edit of the post you replied to? Is there a plan for updating the character descriptions? I would be much easier and faster than making everyone wait for each characters intro video.

We will be doing this with the release of 4.0 so we can update everything all at once and not have to go back, also in case abilities are added, altered, or removed.

 

[Thor]

I think you can also zap jump with zair, but I'm not positive.