Aspects of Minus that should be removed or adjusted for the benefit of competitive play.

[Turk Injaydii]

How many of meteoring Bthrows exist in Minus? I'm sure there are multiple ones. Captain Falcon is the only character I use regularly that has one, and it seems like a completely broken thing to have; even by Minus's standards. If the Captain grabs you on ledge with his back to it, he can kill you with a simple back throw at 0% on nearly any stage, if not all of them. Why is that a thing? I love this game and I'm trying to get players in my scene to jump on the Minus bandwagon... I think I'll be successful, but I also think the presence of effortless kills will turn players away. OHKO moves should be high-risk/high-reward. So that if the player gets hit by it, HE DONE GOOFED!!! and deserved to die, or he has an amply sized window of opportunity to punish his opponent if he avoids it.

That's not the case if Captain Falcon happens to grab you at 0% on ledge, though. He's very fast and it's not hard to land a grab. I'd especially hate to see a Loser/Winners/Grand Finals match won because a Falcon landed a back throw on ledge at 0%...I don't get why folks have been making an uproar about Sonic's Dair-to-spring when this is just as cheesy.

Any chance we can have this removed in 4.0f? I think it would be great for competitive play and balance if kill options like this were all removed.

 

[Pin Clock]

I'm assuming that this is because a scenario where Falcon grabs someone right at the edge while facing away from it is very, very rare.

If it is an issue we can be looked into.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

I'm assuming that this is because a scenario where Falcon grabs someone right at the edge while facing away from it is very, very rare.

If it is an issue we can be looked into.

Though the scenario may be rare, its presence can still be the determining factor in a set. And it's not at all hard to land a dashing pivot grab to get one of these kills. Furthermore, IIRC, Fox can do the same thing if Dthrows a character close enough to ledge; and I'm sure there are others that I just haven't seen.

Minus is often viewed as a jankfest that shouldn't be taken seriously competitively; something I strongly disagree with. However, the presence of effortless kills like can definitely turn potential players away from playing it.

 

[Thor]

You can meteor cancel Falcon's bthrow very very easily. It's not like Sonic's dair where it auto-kills at ledge height, in fact I don't think I've ever scored a KO from Falcon bthrow or been KO'd by it.

Not only do I never die to it, even at extremely high percents [barring Wi-Fi lag], but it also means he has no throw to send people backwards.

I would suggest changing this throw to a back throw that launches backwards, but because the throw itself just isn't useful [if he needs a tech chase throw, he already has that in dthrow since you just DI down and away to avoid true followups, at least as a fastfaller]. There are multiple times where I'd prefer a positional throw to throw someone offstage as Falcon and I just... can't.

Also, I'm not saying he should get a kill throw, in fact I don't think he needs one really [fthrow is enough]. But just something like his Melee bthrow where he can actually put people offstage would be wonderful.

 

[Neville]

Toon Link and Lucario's bthrows also send downwards but neither of them send at meteor cancelable angles leading to early kills, especially Lucario.

 

[Thor]

Toon Link and Lucario's bthrows also send downwards but neither of them send at meteor cancelable angles leading to early kills, especially Lucario.

IIRC Lucario's kills off the side and looks hilarious doing so, and the same for Tink. They don't actually send you at angles that you'd need to meteor cancel, they send you at angles that look like you DI'd the knee straight downward [examples in GRSmash top 10 worst DI].

It may be a balance check required, but I don't think those throws kill you the way Sonic dair or missing a meteor cancel on Ganondorf's stomp do, they just kill you the way DIing Ness's bthrow downward does.... and they also don't come close to killing until at least 60% [early, sure, but not lethal below 20% or at 0% or whatever].

[Again, that's if I recall correctly. If the throws were changed in 4.0b, my info is almost certainly wrong, and if they weren't, that's no guarantee they aren't deserving a nerf, it just means they aren't guaranteed KOs at 20% at the ledge.]

 

[Turk Injaydii]

IIRC Lucario's kills off the side and looks hilarious doing so, and the same for Tink. They don't actually send you at angles that you'd need to meteor cancel, they send you at angles that look like you DI'd the knee straight downward [examples in GRSmash top 10 worst DI].

It may be a balance check required, but I don't think those throws kill you the way Sonic dair or missing a meteor cancel on Ganondorf's stomp do, they just kill you the way DIing Ness's bthrow downward does.... and they also don't come close to killing until at least 60% [early, sure, but not lethal below 20% or at 0% or whatever].

[Again, that's if I recall correctly. If the throws were changed in 4.0b, my info is almost certainly wrong, and if they weren't, that's no guarantee they aren't deserving a nerf, it just means they aren't guaranteed KOs at 20% at the ledge.]

Whether they're DI'able or not, throws that grant the same things as attacks that usually require reads is still ridiculous. The characters in Minus are strong enough already w/o the absurd throws. I'm not sure about Tink and Lucario's throws, but even killing at 60% is STUPID for a throw. As for Falcon, his kills as 0% w/o the meteor cancel. Which, again, is STUPID...lol. You may be cool w/ it, but I promise the devs that most players serious about competitive play won't be .

It all comes down to what the devs want. Do you want to be looked at as Silly Melee, but with Brawl? By all means, leave it. But if you want your game played and enjoyed competitively, get rid of throws like this.

 

[Neville]

IIRC Lucario's kills off the side and looks hilarious doing so, and the same for Tink. They don't actually send you at angles that you'd need to meteor cancel, they send you at angles that look like you DI'd the knee straight downward [examples in GRSmash top 10 worst DI].

It may be a balance check required, but I don't think those throws kill you the way Sonic dair or missing a meteor cancel on Ganondorf's stomp do, they just kill you the way DIing Ness's bthrow downward does.... and they also don't come close to killing until at least 60% [early, sure, but not lethal below 20% or at 0% or whatever].

[Again, that's if I recall correctly. If the throws were changed in 4.0b, my info is almost certainly wrong, and if they weren't, that's no guarantee they aren't deserving a nerf, it just means they aren't guaranteed KOs at 20% at the ledge.]

TL's definitely is more of a really low horizontal angle but Lucario sends at a Savage semispike angle.

 

[Thor]

Whether they're DI'able or not, throws that grant the same things as attacks that usually require reads is still ridiculous. The characters in Minus are strong enough already w/o the absurd throws. I'm not sure about Tink and Lucario's throws, but even killing at 60% is STUPID for a throw. As for Falcon, his kills as 0% w/o the meteor cancel. Which, again, is STUPID...lol. You may be cool w/ it, but I promise the devs that most players serious about competitive play won't be .

It all comes down to what the devs want. Do you want to be looked at as Silly Melee, but with Brawl? By all means, leave it. But if you want your game played and enjoyed competitively, get rid of throws like this.

Killing without the meteor cancel is irrelevant to high-level play, because anyone actually serious about being good at the game will just learn to meteor-cancel it if they don't already. Anyone who says otherwise and also thinks it needs to be nerfed is just a scrub.

Ness's fthrow can KO on Warioland at 0%, same for Smashville. It requires positioning more difficult than Falcon's bthrow at the ledge, but it's also not escapable by simply pressing jump. Are you telling me we need to nerf Ness???

As for Lucario and Tink, I think 60% is where it would KO Falco if he didn't have a great recovery, when Lucario uses ULTRATAUNT, aka that thing that maxes out his aura, and that was in 3.Q. It wouldn't KO heavies until later, and I believe his bthrow was influenced by aura, so my 60% KO point is probably something that would never happen in serious play unless someone was down far enough to justify an ULTRATAUNT and made it last long enough to be useful.

I'd have to go and really lab the throws, but if memory serves, under fairly normal conditions at the ledge vs a normal-weight character [not a lightweight like Falco], neither throw KOs until about 100%, which is when Ness bthrow KOs [heck, Ness bthrow might KO earlier]. And that's hardly overpowered.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

Killing without the meteor cancel is irrelevant to high-level play, because anyone actually serious about being good at the game will just learn to meteor-cancel it if they don't already. Anyone who says otherwise and also thinks it needs to be nerfed is just a scrub.

Ness's fthrow can KO on Warioland at 0%, same for Smashville. It requires positioning more difficult than Falcon's bthrow at the ledge, but it's also not escapable by simply pressing jump. Are you telling me we need to nerf Ness???

As for Lucario and Tink, I think 60% is where it would KO Falco if he didn't have a great recovery, when Lucario uses ULTRATAUNT, aka that thing that maxes out his aura, and that was in 3.Q. It wouldn't KO heavies until later, and I believe his bthrow was influenced by aura, so my 60% KO point is probably something that would never happen in serious play unless someone was down far enough to justify an ULTRATAUNT and made it last long enough to be useful.

I'd have to go and really lab the throws, but if memory serves, under fairly normal conditions at the ledge vs a normal-weight character [not a lightweight like Falco], neither throw KOs until about 100%, which is when Ness bthrow KOs [heck, Ness bthrow might KO earlier]. And that's hardly overpowered.

I'm not really suggesting a nerf. I'm suggesting that an aspect of the game, throws that meteor, be removed. It could be handled by making characters grab ledge after the throw, the exact thing that happens when Ganon flame chokes on ledge.

 

[Doqtor Kirby]

If you get bthrown by Falcon at the ledge, you got outplayed.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

If you get bthrown by Falcon at the ledge, you got outplayed.

No. Losing the neutral once does amount to "being outplayed."

 

[Gold_TSG]

Doesn't Falcon's bthrow have set KB anyway?

And "Silly Melee" copied Brawl Minus. Please don't mix that up.

As for the danger of Falcon's bthrow, I see it being a bigger issue if you combine the fact that it sets most chars in a prime spot to be hit by a falling dair, but even then, it's not guaranteed. I used to play a lot of Falcon, and even I never got very many opportunities to set up such a situation. Maybe if you combine his speed with a well timed pivot grab, but that's still rare.

 

[Thor]

No. Losing the neutral once does amount to "being outplayed."

That's like the definition of being outplayed. When the opponent wins neutral and you lose neutral, you've been outplayed.

That said, with that logic you have to outplay someone several times to win a set, and can be outplayed in getting grabbed, but then outplay the opponent by DIing the followup so that they get minimal reward [ex: Falcon grabs you, you DI down and away and tech dthrow and he gets nothing - you got grabbed, but you avoided his followup, outplaying him after he outplayed you].

Normally outplayed refers to macro-situations instead of micro-situations [i.e. winning a set instead of individual instances, or getting outplayed when you hard read someone's tech roll with a Falcon Punch and it lands], but I would definitely say that a Falcon outplays their opponent when they land uair uair knee onstage, but at the same time, if Falcon lands only uair and is unable to followup, the opponent outplayed Falcon by correctly guessing where to DI and doing so, even if they were outplayed by being in a spot to get uair initially.

I'm not really suggesting a nerf. I'm suggesting that an aspect of the game, throws that meteor, be removed. It could be handled by making characters grab ledge after the throw, the exact thing that happens when Ganon flame chokes on ledge.

I don't think Fox dthrow needs to be changed, because you can wall-tech it, meteor cancel it, and also just DI onstage and not get meteor-smashed. I agree Falcon's bthrow should be changed, but our reasons are totally different [you find it unfair or that's what seems to be the case, I just think it's not a useful throw and that a throw more like his Brawl or Melee bthrow would be more useful, without being broken in any real sense].

I'm not sure what other meteor throws there are you want removed, but in general I think meteor throws are kind of silly, in that they aren't that useful. Fox's matches Melee and helps him tech chase (sort of) so it kind of makes sense [and he'd either get a combo throw that would be ridiculous or get a positional throw when he already has two, so that would likely be almost useless], while Falcon's is just... odd.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

"Silly Melee" copied Brawl Minus. Please don't mix that up.
.

K. I'm completely aware of that...

To address everything else... Meteor throws can result in early kills. Everything that has been said here, I was already aware of; the positioning happens rarely, their meteor cancelable, etc...

Just brought it to your attention because I felt it was a poor design choice and unnecessary when you can create a tech chase throw w/o making it a meteor; like in every other Smash (the simplest fix seems to be having the thrown character grab ledge, the same thing that happens after a grounded Flame Choke).

Just making a suggestion that I feel would result in more interest from new players; I take the game to a weekly and many questioned the throw... Anyway, that's all I'm saying on the subject. Idk if yall are just overly defensive of design choices in your game or what...but yall come across as unwelcoming to feedback.

 

[Gold_TSG]

The only one that seems to be defensive is the one thinking others might be coming off as defensive. Nobody is being unwelcoming to feedback, it's just simple debate between views and opinions of decisions. Some just don't see it as a big issue like you do, is all. I personally never had a problem against what you are debating about, and due to its rarity as a whole, most people follow that line of thought, regardless of how dumb it can be. If it was a more common occurrence, then I would likely be singing a very different tune here.

 

[Doqtor Kirby]

And "Silly Melee" copied Brawl Minus. Please don't mix that up.

If you want to be technical (and I do): Silly Melee copied pre-reset dev files from Melee Minus, which is a concept fork of Brawl Minus.

Melee Minus post-reset development no longer has any files or code from pre-reset, and has no files or code from the pre-reset development. In other words, Silly Melee and Brawl Minus are now unrelated.

I had the urge to point this out.

 

[Gold_TSG]

If you want to be technical (and I do): Silly Melee copied pre-reset dev files from Melee Minus, which is a concept fork of Brawl Minus.

Melee Minus post-reset development no longer has any files or code from pre-reset, and has no files or code from the pre-reset development. In other words, Silly Melee and Brawl Minus are now unrelated.

I had the urge to point this out.

Then I stand corrected.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

A member of my scene just brought something else to my attention: How early meteors kill in this game (when not meteor cancelled). Meteors seem to have very high base knockback, which grants them the ability to kill a character at 10-20% at stage level; i killed Marth with ZSS's down b spike at 12%. Could this be adjusted? Meteor cancelling existed in Melee, but meteors couldn't kill that early (unless you were on Yoshi's...everything kills on Yoshi's, lol)

 

[Neville]

All of Brawl's meteors are cancelable halfway through the knockback of the meteor. This is a problem when some character such as Yoshi have meteors so powerful you die before this point at like 30.

Edit: amending this to say characters have individual frames they can jump out of a meteor. For most characters this is 25 frames.

 

[Kymaera K1ng]

Its not rare, Falcon can just do a dash into pivot grab. Its pretty simple to pull off.

I'm assuming that this is because a scenario where Falcon grabs someone right at the edge while facing away from it is very, very rare.

If it is an issue we can be looked into.

I think that Ganondorf throws should not all be kill throws. Like all of them kill up, forward, and back all kill on their own while down throw is a kill confirm into wizards foot no about of di will save you. Sense up throw hurts so much why not just let if be a pop up with little knock back? I'm not saying kill throws are bad but three for one character is a little much. Also Any projectile that spike is bad. I'm looking at you Olimar

Buddy I'm sorry but I think you fail to realize that he was saying that just getting back thrown does not amount to being out played winning the match is what characterizes who got out played in most instances. Also a single positive out come for you does not amount to you out playing someone. In any game there is back and forth between the contestants. So the majority of you logic is quite frankly wrong. Most of what you said is just useless fluff. Just learn what a saying means before you use or contest it. And yes foxes down throw is fine the timing is just strange you have to tec while you are still getting hit which is strange.

That's like the definition of being outplayed. When the opponent wins neutral and you lose neutral, you've been outplayed.

That said, with that logic you have to outplay someone several times to win a set, and can be outplayed in getting grabbed, but then outplay the opponent by DIing the followup so that they get minimal reward [ex: Falcon grabs you, you DI down and away and tech dthrow and he gets nothing - you got grabbed, but you avoided his followup, outplaying him after he outplayed you].

Normally outplayed refers to macro-situations instead of micro-situations [i.e. winning a set instead of individual instances, or getting outplayed when you hard read someone's tech roll with a Falcon Punch and it lands], but I would definitely say that a Falcon outplays their opponent when they land uair uair knee onstage, but at the same time, if Falcon lands only uair and is unable to followup, the opponent outplayed Falcon by correctly guessing where to DI and doing so, even if they were outplayed by being in a spot to get uair initially.



I don't think Fox dthrow needs to be changed, because you can wall-tech it, meteor cancel it, and also just DI onstage and not get meteor-smashed. I agree Falcon's bthrow should be changed, but our reasons are totally different [you find it unfair or that's what seems to be the case, I just think it's not a useful throw and that a throw more like his Brawl or Melee bthrow would be more useful, without being broken in any real sense].

I'm not sure what other meteor throws there are you want removed, but in general I think meteor throws are kind of silly, in that they aren't that useful. Fox's matches Melee and helps him tech chase (sort of) so it kind of makes sense [and he'd either get a combo throw that would be ridiculous or get a positional throw when he already has two, so that would likely be almost useless], while Falcon's is just... odd.

The SDI in this game is fantastic though do don"t mess with that please
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