4.0b Link. The Hero You Remember

Discussion in 'Link' started by Kien, Oct 11, 2015.

  1. Kien

    Kien A Meaningless Circle Minus Backroom

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    This Link build was intended to feel familiar to old school Link mains while still having some of the newer Minus tricks. Removal of things that could accidentally interfere with normal play and reversion of moves that may have felt offputting with their placement. He was toned down just a tad in terms of projectile power, but I believe his close quarters game being improved a bit with varying tilts and the like give him a bit more options. He's definitely not a bad character, but does anyone think he needs improvement, or is he fine as is now?
     
  2. Lucis Perficio

    Lucis Perficio Radiant Hero of Blue Flames

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    I prefered the variety he had with his Jump Strike and Ending Blow. They were both effective against shields, where his current fSmash isn't. Also his ftilt functioned almost exactly as his fSmash if not for the damage. I still think it's a little ridiculous that Link's fSmash does more damage than Ike's imo :/

    (Posting this for others to see bc Kien knows this)
     
  3. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    If either of the individual hits do more than Ike fsmash, that's a little weird, but it has less KB. And if you mean landing both hits being stronger, that only seems to make sense, as it's hard to connect both hits [or was, I didn't mess with it too much, but it didn't seem that reliable].

    As for my own thoughts....

    Bombs need a gigantic knockback nerf. As it stands, Link can kill a decent chunk of the cast outright at 130% from the base of the stage with a bomb throw, and he kills Peach at 100% [that MU is incidentally downright awful for Peach]. He already has an obscenely strong dair, great smash attacks, a great uair, spin attack, and boomerang to set up into that stuff... there's no reason his bombs should be such obscenely potent kill options.

    I think if a bomb is killing Jigglypuff at 150% from her short hop, they probably have about the right knockback. This comes with a sweet bonus - Link is able to combo off of his own bombs better, which makes him able to get kill confirms with them, BUT it avoids Link being able to simply run away for the entirety of a last hit situation [something he is tremendously skilled at doing]. This has another great side effect - reflected bombs are now a lot less dangerous [you won't die at like 90% to one or whatever]. If there was one tweak to Link I'd make, it'd be a bomb KB nerf.

    Some other things... I'd probably make his arrows alternate [or taunt switch]. Having bomb and fire arrows is cool (sort of), but making them occur randomly strikes me as an extremely stupid DI mixup, one that is neither fun to play against nor fun to use. It also means you sometimes get one arrow when you want the other, and that's annoying as well [trying to kill them off the side and the bomb arrow launches them upwards but doesn't kill]. If he had arrows that alternated, OR a taunt to switch arrow modes [bomb vs fire], it'd be more interesting and more interactive [team saves with uncharged bomb arrow sound amazing, but as it stands, 50-50 chance you just kill them outright]. His arrows also still KO really well, and there are silly ways to force your opponent into stupid mixups because of how getting onstage in this game works, but I don't think they're likely THAT bad so whatever.

    I think his jabs being quick was fine if they did less damage... his jab combo is fine, but it could also be the old, faster version if it did 12% total instead of 18%.

    Might be more stuff but those are the three big things I can think of.
     
  4. Kien

    Kien A Meaningless Circle Minus Backroom

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    Losing 6% for 2 frames would be a horrible trade off, just saying. If there's any change I'm not okay with, it's making his bombs weaker. Other changes I would be more likely to experiment with. Link doesn't really need to hitconfirm with bombs, that's Toon Link's thing.
     
  5. Bent 00

    Bent 00 Longtime Limit Breaker

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    Taunt-switched arrows sounds interesting, but then you'd have to do the same thing for Toon Link.

    Making both characters' special arrows fire in a set order would probably be easier. Or maybe the arrow type could be controlled via Tilt?

    Could Bomb Arrows only be fired if Link uses his Bow while holding a Bomb (using it as ammo)? Probably a bad idea, just curious if it's possible.
     
  6. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    Toon Link's arrows aren't a DI trap where you just die if you've got the wrong DI at 70%. So no, you wouldn't, not even close.

    Set arrow order is irrelevant for Tink - his arrows don't kill outright [well ok at 200% I guess but you'll die to almost anything then]. The issue is the extreme KB on his arrows combined with the inability to react to what arrow was fired to DI [as it seems to be].

    It would be a horrible trade off for his enemies, maybe (too extreme a buff). Link isn't really supposed to rack up damage with jab, he's supposed to use it to force people out of his space [for damage, you've got all of his tilts and smashes]. Faster jab = better able to escape tech chases and apply shield pressure, and it also helps him set up jab-grab better [which is an obscene amount of damage, and uthrow kills if I recall correctly]. If his jab is designed to be a damage-builder, it's just a redundancy in his moveset.

    Well that's a shame. I guess Peach is doomed to a nearly unwinnable Link MU then *shrugs*. MegaSaturn99 hope you have a backup ready should there ever be a tournament we both enter...

    There's no reason that 'being Toon Link's thing" means Link can't do it [they both can kill with boomerangs, albeit in different ways, they both have kill throws, they both pull bombs obscenely fast, they both throw projectiles, they both have good zairs... need I list more?]. It would address the issue of bombs killing waaaaaay too early [I'm sure Pin Clock will agree with me that those things are obscenely powerful, in what's likely a bad way] without removing much KO power.

    If you're not going to nerf Link's bombs or his close-quarters game, you've done a good job creating a character that is hugely frustrating to fight in a manner different from Sonic, but one that's also a lot more toxic to new players. Remember when people complained about Ganondorf being fast [yes, there was a thread on that <_<]? Link is much, MUCH worse with complaints like that [his basic design is already a n00b slayer, and that's why he was so awful in Brawl - Sakurai's dev team felt Melee Link was too good for the general audience so he got nerfed <_<].

    Reducing bomb KB and increasing his close-quarters speed while reducing his overall damage output would lend him more to combos and interesting strings that set him up as the character you've tried to set Samus up as [and frankly, Samus is bland because her combos all end the same way, which I said earlier]. Right now, he's currently set up where you could win with just the B button, shield/dodge, and jab, which I frankly think is uninteresting design (he's got what you'd call Falcon syndrome, although we see Falcon differently)... he just doesn't have a reason to use some of his tools [uair, dtilt] because other tools just overshadow them so completely [bombs, jab]. This is technically unique in that unlike the rest of the cast, he'll juggle [but not combo] with projectiles, but that design just leaves a sour taste in my mouth when I look at Melee, PM, and Smash 4 Link, who all get great mileage out of both projectiles and close-up options, in ways that make using all your different options actually desirable.

    Been re-worded very slightly be less harsh. Message is basically unaltered.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 14, 2015
  7. Neville

    Neville GG M8s Minus Backroom

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    This is what secondaries are for.
     
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  8. Kien

    Kien A Meaningless Circle Minus Backroom

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    If Link is a noob slayer right now, how do you think nerfing one of his 10+ kill options and giving him a jab fast enough to beat half the cast will make him any less of one? You're saying tone down a strength to get rid of his only weakness. Everyone went crazy when his jab was two frames faster. I don't think they could handle it again with his other stuff being as good as it.
     
  9. Sammi-husky

    Sammi-husky Scientist #1 Minus Backroom

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    Just gonna throw my opinion in here. I've been saying bombs were way too stronk for literally forever. Probably since max idk. In any case, i def think they're too strong right now. He doesn't need to be able to kill that early with them. It doesn't feel deserved more than anything. It feels..cheap. Like he doesnt really have to work much for a kill after 128+ percents. Even chars that reflect the bombs will still die, since bombs reflect down at their feet. Link can just spam them.


    just my 2 cents i suppose
     
  10. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    Thing is, being a n00b slayer isn't a reason to nerf a character [that'd be awful, see Brawl Link >_>... nerfed because Melee Link was "2 gud" for casuals], but in general projectiles are often a lot more frustrating to beat, and toning them down would also make some MUs a lot less awful.

    I also definitely disagree that his jab being two frames faster makes him beat half the cast [it certainly won't make Ganondorf like him anymore, lol], but I'm not gonna go into that (we can discuss if you insist). It also doesn't eliminate his OoS issues [definitely a thing] or respectable but by no means perfect recovery, it just makes his up-close game slightly more threatening and his options out of tech chases less laughable.

    (Incidentally, I only initially went crazy when jab was 2 frames faster because he didn't have compensating nerfs.)
     
  11. Thanatoast

    Thanatoast Grim Reaper in Training

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  12. Kien

    Kien A Meaningless Circle Minus Backroom

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    You weren't the only one raising a fuss when his jab was sped up. There were a few others saying he didn't deserve that, but anyway... I wasn't saying his jab makes him outright beat half the cast. What it would do is make his jab no longer among the top 5 slowest in the game, so that would let him out jab grabs, which would be a first for him. The average jab speed is about 4 frames I believe. Link would be right there jabbing alongside everyone else. As for projectiles being difficult to fight, his were toned down in 4.0b.
     
  13. Pin Clock

    Pin Clock Project Leader Minus Backroom

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    I've been having these thoughts for a while too. Sure Link can also kill in many other ways at those percents, but at least those feel earned.
     
  14. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    Unless you buff IASA, you actually nerf jab grab, because there's two more frames he'd have to wait... or if you're saying jab grab wouldn't work on him anymore, I'm not sure if that's an issue? Is that really a balance consideration used for this???

    If you buff IASA too that is a potential issue though, although buffered spotdodge avoids it... 50-50 with spin attack I suppose?
     
  15. Thanatoast

    Thanatoast Grim Reaper in Training

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    So, in all seriousness, what I remember about Link's old jab-chain was that it was primarily used as a spacer, with the last hit meant to knock the foe back a decent distance in order to set Link up for his zoning attack and arrow barrages and Nyoomarang. I also do agree that his bombs need a nice nerf in terms of at least knock-back or damage. Maybe if his bombs were redone for it being a finish to a juggle, or something like that?

    Back to his jabs, maybe pull it back by one frame? Since folks complained when his jab was too fast when his jab was increased by two frames, and were disappointed when his jab was too slow at his starting point, then make it only increased by one frame? I'm not a programmer, so I don't know how that would affect things like animation and whatnot, or if it's possible to alter the frames by odd numbers or by only one... Or maybe increase the cooldown/endlag of his last stab?
     
  16. Kien

    Kien A Meaningless Circle Minus Backroom

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    Delayed reply. So the common is that Link's bombs are his most matchup breaking advantage. Getting unreflectable cross map kills at relatively moderate percents (low if you jump over him) that he can combo into out of a grab is seen negatively. His spam was toned down a bit for 4.0b and this time around he doesn't need many changes. The idea now, is to decrease the strength at which he throws items. This will make the bombs travel a shorter distance which is actually a side grade since you can cover more realistic angles now. It'll also give opponents who were just thrown a bit more time to dodge out of the way. Whether it'll be enough time is yet to be known, but it will be a noticeable difference.
     

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