4.0b Community tier list

[Neville]

Well, we've played this version of Minus a lot since it came out and I've decided we should have a tier list. And since Minus is community driven, I think we should have a community tier list. Here's how it'll work:

I've put every character in a Google Form, which will be open to everybody. You will go down the list of characters and rank them from S tier to F tier. I highly recommend you pre-make your tier list before submitting it. There will be no limits to how many characters are in these tiers. If you think there are no F tier or S tier characters, don't put any. You may also skip any characters you do not feel comfortable voting for due to lack of experience playing as, or against that character. You can give your email at the beginning of the form to receive an email that allows you to edit it later. Will this result in slightly skewed data? Probably. But I feel it will be helpful to the devs, and to us if we have one. Feel free to discuss in the comments. Happy Tiering!

Link to the form: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1MUknuHxwKATXYpfvyC2bSG_9FW-XC2yhNlaPqorUnvA/viewform?usp=send_form

 

[Valravn]

I went through and made mine.

S: Fox

A+: Pichu*

A : Captain Falcon, Sonic, Peach, Falco, Meta Knight, Lucario

A-: Marth, King Dedede

B+: Link, Sheik, Wolf, Diddy Kong, Charizard, Wario

B: Pikachu, Luigi, Ness, Lucas, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Ike, R.O.B., Snake, Roy

B-: Toon Link

C+: Zelda, Zero Suit Samus

C: Donkey Kong, Mario, Samus, Yoshi, Game and Watch, Ganondorf, Pit

C-: Ice Climbers, Olimar

F: Kirby, Bowser, Jigglypuff

*If Pichu loses her infinite chain grabs and near-infinite tilt strings on Wario, Bowser, etc, they'll be nearer to the middle of the pack.

I have Yoshi, Game and Watch, and Pit on this list as my speculation, but I didn't enter them on the form because I'm the only person I know who plays them at all in my local area.

 

[Thor]

I'll make one here as well.

S: Fox, Sonic, Meta Knight
A+: Sheik, Falco, Wolf, Squirtle (**), King Dedede (*), Lucario,
A: Yoshi(*), Pit(*), Diddy Kong(*), Ivysaur, Snake (*), Pichu
A- : Mario, Toon Link, Marth, Zero Suit Samus (*), Olimar(*), Wario(*)
B+: Luigi, Captain Falcon, ROB(**)
B: Link, Pikachu, Peach, Game and Watch (*), Lucas(*), Ike, Jigglypuff, Roy(*)
B-: Samus, Kirby(*), Ness, Zelda(*), Charizard
C+: Donkey Kong, Ice Climbers
C: Bowser, Ganondorf
C-:
F:

(*) indicates more than mild uncertainy, and (**) is almost 100% guesswork or hearsay [** applies only to Squirtle, whom the backroom thinks is amazing, but I've not played a Squirtle in recent memory, and the one I did way back complained about the Falco MU, and ROB, who's been nerfed and de-nerfed and moved about so much I've no idea where he sits].

Spoiler: Explanation of S tiers

I think Fox is very well made, but with all the nerfs, he starts to shine more and more [heh]. If shine correctly knocked down people below weight 87, he'd be a bit lower [but Kirby can be waveshined as far as I know, which is reaaaally good]. Note that we have no S tier Foxes... the way I play him, he's a solid A- tier or a little better, but not S tier. If someone can nail down consistent waveshines and the like, then also abuses side+b, he's better and earns that S tier. Not broken in a bad way, but very, very good. Not being able to shine spike Snake, and some other MUs where he really can't gimp at all [vs Ivysaur's bullet seed, vs ZSS flip kick stuff, vs DK's absurd recovery height, etc.] help moderate his advantage, as does his lackluster KO power outside of usmash, uair, and bair [and Bowser can tank usmash even at 150% on Smashville and live, so it's not expectional by Minus standards either].

MK's dair is a meteor smash frame trap offstage - busted. He can take you offstage effortlessly [or nearly] and kill you outright extraordinarily quickly. Dair is a meteor smash so it starts combos onstage [dair fsmash can KO easily if the dair hits them while grounded], and while his moveset lost a lot of its flash [RIP drill rush and shuttle loop being cool and steerable and stuff], it's ever the more deadly and efficient]

Sonic is amazing, extremely difficult to hit [even with his boost nerf], and while his KO power IS below average, sure, it's still very potent and consistent - you shouldn't live much past 150% vs this character unless you are Bowser, and he still racks damage quickly enough to where if you compare to most of the cast, he doesn't take longer from a time perspective and he doesn't need to win neutral more than most.

For what it's worth, I think A+ tiers are very well-balanced and a great power-level, and I had no idea if most A characters were actually A+ or if that would over-rate them. Tier gaps themselves are fairly small [though the jump from B- to C+ is larger than the others for sure], and separation in the tiers themselves is also not large if at all (and the lists are unordered). I do not think Fox needs nerfs in S tier, but I think only S tier really merits any nerfs [if any are to come at all], outside of very specific, targeted nerfs to a few things [example would be how Pit's side+b is basically a free grab on shield and shield-cancellable on whiff... we don't even have buffered spotdodges to help out as far as I know, making this move obscenely amazing on a character who otherwise wouldn't be that high (although again, my Pit placement is still uncertain as to how good the rest of Pit is...)].

I also feel the dev team is currently trying to balance everyone to about B on the tier list, based on previous patches.

 

[vanity.]

So... this is what I came up with.

S:
A+: Fox, Meta Knight, Pichu, Sonic, Squirtle
A: Diddy Kong, Falco, Link, Lucario, Wolf
A-: Captain Falcon, Ivysaur, Dedede, Sheik
B+: Charizard, Marth, Olimar, Pikachu, R.O.B., Roy, Wario
B: G&W, Luigi, Mario, Pit, Peach, Snake, Toon Link, Yoshi
B-: Ganondorf, Ike, Lucas, Ness
C+: Jigglypuff, Kirby, Zelda, ZSS
C: Donkey Kong, Samus
C-: Bowser, Ice Climbers
F:

Now, I don't have anyone in the S or F tier because I don't think there's any one character or characters in the game that has such a large advantage or disadvantage compared to the rest of the cast to justify it. However, there are some characters that are decisively better and worse than other characters.

For example, Ice Climbers requires a learning large curve, and doesn't really get much of a reward for it. Yeah, they can rack up damage pretty quickly, but their kill options are severely limited. Plus, you need a grab or a couple of complex strings in order to get everything started. Basically, the plan against IC's are same as usual. Kill Nana. However, losing Nana is even more dangerous in this game, and they don't have enough to make having Nana super valuable. Sopo isn't very good if you could tell. But I wouldn't say IC's are horrible, you can beat a Falcon or Fox if you play super good. It's just that they need more of... something.

 

[Valravn]

I feel like everyone in Minus is so capable of beating up Nana that she is irrelevant in most matches. Popo alone is playable, but IMO clearly one of the worst characters in the game. Popo is only above Bowser because Bowser is even easier to combo than Nana.

I have Kirby and Jigglypuff at the bottom because they have no way to get in on most characters and their kill moves are super telegraphed and unsafe. This coupled with the fact that half the cast can KO them at 30 does them no favors. Does anyone have other opinions on them?

 

[vanity.]

Yeah, I think Nana is too easy to remove from the stage. You can get her back, but it's so unsafe without having to go to the ledge that it's never worth it to bring her back. You don't want to be on the ledge anyways. IMO, grounded Up-B should bring back Nana quick without putting them in immediate danger.

I think Kirby and Puff are merely okay characters. Compared to the rest of the cast, they're a little weak. Puff's Sing is absolutely absurd though, with how much range it has and how you get a free Rest off of it. Approach is a problem for them though. But if Kirby or Puff opens you up, you can die, but that applies to almost every character in the game. Not only that, most characters have an infinitely easier approaching. With so many characters having stronger kill moves too, they often die at low percents too. They can do well, but they need to play so stupidly safe, because if they don't, they'll probably die. Both of them have good grab games though. I don't think that they desperately need a buff, they just need to compensate for their weaknesses.

 

[BC]

Tfw someone doesn't know that IC's Up B is shield cancellable. XD

 

[vanity.]

Well, may I be damned, Up-B is cancellable. Also a good desync tool. Wish I knew that earlier.

 

[Xentas]

Not exactly a tier list based in competition, just my observations/opinions and other things. (no order to the characters in tiers):
SS/S: Fox, Meta Knight, Sonic, Lucario, Yoshi, King Dedede
A+: Peach, Falco, Squirtle, Captain Falcon
A: Wolf, Link, Pit, Toon Link
A-: Sheik, Bowser, Pichu, Zero Suit Samus
B+: Charizard, Ivysaur, Olimar, ROB, Mario
B: Wario, Luigi, Game and Watch, Roy
B-: Lucas, Ness, Zelda, Samus, Jigglypuff
C+: Kirby, DK, Ice Climbers
C: Ganondorf, Ike

Yoshi is the most broken character I've had a gander at. BRINGRINGRINGRINGRINGRINGHAH!!!!!!! Oh, and he can smash two lives on one final smash, stun you for a nice old smash or something with his neutral special. AND his hitboxes are broken, his bomb's physics are whack and can be slightly controlled. He's fast as Sonic as the tumbling egg.
Question: Since "Pokémon Trainer" is still technically a roster character, where would he get on tiers if you used all the pokemon like he does? He has the high powered, endurable Charizard, though he's now basically the shadow of Bowser but more tech-type moves. 'Zard can easily KO at high percentages and stay on the field while he's at it, and attack groups well. After that, Ivysaur and Squirtle are extremely well rounded and can rack up damage nicely for Charizard (or even just themselves for KO's).

 

[vanity.]

Because of the removal of stamina, as well as the pokemon just getting better movesets to work with, Pokemon Trainer isn't really that ideal as a character, especially since changing pokemon takes too much time and leaves you wide open to any attack. You can change between pokemon after you lose the stock, but that's the most ideal spot to change. I mean, he exists, but there isn't really a reason to change pokemon, especially since Squirtle and Ivysaur have more reliable kill moves and Charizard can do his own shenanigans and still fare well without his partners. I don't think the pokemon should be their own characters though, because it gives you options and variety for the way you want to play the character(s).

 

[Neville]

If you consider Pokemon trainer as one character, as well as Sheik/Zelda they would go one higher spot than the highest transformation thay have due to increased options.

 

[Xentas]

What's up with Ike being the worst character in the game? I get he's a heavyweight, but he's just way too laggy, and has the most lacking moveset. Ganondorf and Bowser both have less lag for their moves, I get Ike can be spacey too, but once he's playing with a cheap shot with all the know, he's gone. Eruption is okay but lots of charge moves aren't that good, at all. Why is he so damn underpowered? The notes of Ike say "he still has no forgiveness for his opponents", but he swings his sword like he wants to die.

 

[vanity.]

Ike's Side-B is really what saves him from being a mediocre character. He gains so much momentum, he can combo easier, and his approach becomes miles better. Once Ike gets in, it's typically hard to keep him out. He ends the stocks of many characters pretty quick. His moves also aren't as laggy and unsafe as they look, and they had disjointed hitboxes (I believe). His recovery is subpar though.

 

[Xentas]

Ike has some good space game and a niche recovery. His up B is about godly as well as his Side. It needs to be more like a fox illusion, it would open up his game. His side a charged is basically Marth's move, it can be okay. He has a good time keeping the final smashes for himself, and I think he has a single good grab for his grab game. However, he's very weak in multiple player games. I wish he had a little armor for his moves though. It says Aether used to heal him, the amount that move is used, a 1 or 2% reduction might be nice per use or two.
I still think he forgives all his opponents in the most cowardice way possible. Swing that blade a little faster, Ike.

 

[Neville]

The poll is closing on 12/31/2015 at midnight so make sure you submit your tier list!

 

[Doqtor Kirby]

SS: Peach

G: Everybody else

(partially salt and partially memes)

 

[Neville]

SS: Peach

G: Everybody else

(partially salt and partially memes)

Doq be saltier than the dead sea sands XD

 

[Thor]

Peach is rekt by Link Falco MK tho...

 

[Neville]

Link isn't so bad anymore since Peach can gimp him hard.

 

[Neville]

Last chance to edit/subit your tier list since it's closing tonight.