Brawl Minus 3.5 has arrived!

[Gold_TSG]

Of all the characters in this mod, I think olimar is the only one who is flat out badly designed. The pikmin all throwing out knockba
ck after a certain cling time is a poor choice (they should just do damage), especially when olimar can grab you to wait out the time.

This is the best version of Olimar they've released. Not only is he a combo monster, he is actually a viable character. His pikmin are fine, since their cling time is based on %, and since his grab still sucks, that complaint is almost moot. I personally love this version, cause I can actually use him.

 

[NEWB]

There isn't anything wrong with olimar. He's beast. Any replays for him?

 

[Other Aether]

Olimar is amazing, fun, and complaints about him being annoying are invalid, since Dedede will always be more annoying. Combos with Pikmin (especially ending with a White Pikmin over the edge of the stage) are the coolest thing ever.

 

[justadood]

should i delete the "st" folder from the SD card?

because as of now, i deleted my old brawl save and downloaded the ARMax completed one, but i can't connect to wifi to check my friend code ...i remember someone saying they couldn't connect to wifi while the "st" file/folder was still in the brawl minus build, and i need to find my new friend code, so should i try deleting that file/folder, and would that let me connect to wifi? or if that isn't the solution, is there some other way to find out the friend code?

 

[Kien]

I can elaborate further later, but really ROB and Ivy didn't -need- any nerfs at all. People just don't really know how to play against them at a high level yet. If ROB were really as inherently broken as a character as people have made him out to be, high level players like Kien or Gold would be able to outperform my lesser characters solely on ROB's ability. Sadly, he's probably only going to see MORE nerfs because these changes aren't going to cost me any games so people are gunna be upset again.

Ivy I don't mind seeing nerfed, but 11 nerfs does start to seem overkill. I'm a team player though so when people want nerfs I mostly roll with it.

You're 100% wrong. Every nerf that was received from those two characters isn't because YOU outperformed everyone with them easily. It was because they are easy for anyone to pick them up and master them. Hell, I beat 3 opponents with ROB on the 3rd match I played as him. Albeit they were Minus CPU's that's still not something I can do with everyone. The thing that you don't see, is how these characters stack up against others evidently. Let's look at Ivysaur. Ivy is supposed to have great control over the battle. What she HAD was more power than Zard, a better projectile than Zard, better spacing options than Marth and better zoning than Samus. If you can give me one solid reason why the middle character of the pokemon trainer's 3 would have the strongest and safest attacks be my guest, but that belongs to Zard by all logical means. The characters weren't nerfed to put you at a disadvantage, they were nerfed to make sense and to be fun to fight. When balancing a game I have to look for the things that stand out as most broken. Ivy had moves that I could NOT DI out of and were killing me from mid stage at like 80. This wouldn't be an issue but when those moves have sweetspots 5 character lengths away from Ivy it becomes one. The only other hitboxes that safe are on projectile attacks. And the few that are equally powerful take much longer to use. So, I don't think you or any other Ivy main has a reason to complain. Then we have the Leaf Storm nerf, Leaf storm was intended to be an undodgeable ledge-guarding attack. It serves that purpose really well if you're below or hanging. However it was killing at 90% from mid stage. That amounts to about 60 from the edge. Then the attack deals 35% which was nerfed but it's nearly like you get a free Falcon punch because someone ran up and you short hop Leaf Stormed. That was beyond horrible. The fact that you can still up B out of Leaf storm special fall it's still a very good attack. Ivy is STILL the only character who can KO with a ledge climb attack which should really be toned down to those of the other characters. The other nerfs were necessary, and if you ask me, putting the crit for razor leaf on the flash makes more sense anyhow.

 

[NEWB]

Actually, I believe it was not intended to edge gaurd. I remember it being said that that was an accident. That may have been speculation though. That was a long time ago.

 

[Kien]

I'm not damaging at all I've played minus max non stop with my friends the nerfs have to stop i have no more characters i enjoy using just make this balanced brawl i understand the developers put in hours of hard work and I was asking questions because only they know the method to there madness i don't know the answer I hate the new nerfs I can't find a character i enjoy using anymore i feel like this community has wasted potential they have the means they have the amazing staff they have the devotion its just not my flavor i'm not discouraging anyone I understand they're putting allot of free time and devotion in and i can respect that i just can't thank them for something i don't like sorry they have good ideas but i dont like the balancing thats not what brawl minus was made for in the first place I'm a mod user and i support the developers as much as i can and i was a huge fan of minus and loved it and i'm posting here to hopefully get back to the roots even tho it will fall on deaf ears this is criticism depending how you take it

Use punctuation or I'm going to start putting all of your posts in a

Spoiler

spoiler

tab.

 

[Other Aether]

Use punctuation or I'm going to start putting all of your posts in a

Spoiler

spoiler

tab.

That was kind of uncalled for...
Even if it is true.

 

[Glyph]

Just as a disclaimer, this whole next post is just a representation of how I feel as a player, not necessarily how I feel as a BRoomer.

You're 100% wrong. Every nerf that was received from those two characters isn't because YOU outperformed everyone with them easily. It was because they are easy for anyone to pick them up and master them. Hell, I beat 3 opponents with ROB on the 3rd match I played as him. Albeit they were Minus CPU's that's still not something I can do with everyone.

This is not a call for balance unless you're balancing for play against CPUs. Being able to pick up quickly doesn't make it broken, it makes it straightforward. The whole point I'm making is once you have actually played against ROB and learn how to handle the matchup, he's not any scarier than Wolf or DK. His approach is completely shut down just by blocking, he can be combo'd all day long from below, and his recovery covers a huge distance but is completely free to just spike 3 times since he can't air dodge during it. Your example doesn't really do your case any justice because you're taking ROB in against people who don't really know the matchup. They don't know to watch for random lasers or how to DI out of ROB's combos.

A point I used to make a lot was 'hey, if someone else can do this ROB stuff I'll happily concede he needs nerfs.' And people technically did, they beat up computers and other people online who didn't know ROB. I've saved a lot of replay evidence for this kind of argument, where I show that simply knowing your way around ROB makes him beatable even with characters like Pikachu.

Point I'm getting at here is balancing off of information coming from CPUs and people unfamiliar with how to beat a character doesn't give you reliable data for who needs nerfed. It shows you who's easy to pick up.

The thing that you don't see, is how these characters stack up against others evidently. Let's look at Ivysaur. Ivy is supposed to have great control over the battle. What she HAD was more power than Zard, a better projectile than Zard, better spacing options than Marth and better zoning than Samus. If you can give me one solid reason why the middle character of the pokemon trainer's 3 would have the strongest and safest attacks be my guest, but that belongs to Zard by all logical means.

I don't think of Ivy as 'the middle character of the pokemon trainer', I look at her as Ivysaur. She should be balanced on what's on par with the rest of the entire cast, not tried to balance around two characters you don't even have to switch to anymore. Ivy being strong didn't make Charizard any less viable, nor does nerfing her make Zard any stronger. I'm not saying I don't get the desire for Ivy nerfs, but it really should come from a balance issue instead of a canon one.

The characters weren't nerfed to put you at a disadvantage, they were nerfed to make sense and to be fun to fight. When balancing a game I have to look for the things that stand out as most broken. Ivy had moves that I could NOT DI out of and were killing me from mid stage at like 80. This wouldn't be an issue but when those moves have sweetspots 5 character lengths away from Ivy it becomes one. The only other hitboxes that safe are on projectile attacks. And the few that are equally powerful take much longer to use. So, I don't think you or any other Ivy main has a reason to complain.

Calling back to my first point, just because you couldn't find a way to DI out or survive doesn't mean there isn't one. I've played a lot of Ivy, but more importantly my playgroup has played AGAINST Ivy a lot. I can't get kills at 80% for the life of me. They know how to avoid the dangerous spots and punish when its safe. I know there's counterplay to Ivy because I see it in action every time I play offline.

Then we have the Leaf Storm nerf, Leaf storm was intended to be an undodgeable ledge-guarding attack. It serves that purpose really well if you're below or hanging. However it was killing at 90% from mid stage. That amounts to about 60 from the edge. Then the attack deals 35% which was nerfed but it's nearly like you get a free Falcon punch because someone ran up and you short hop Leaf Stormed.

I'd honestly argue leaf storm is completely unneeded. Ivy worked great as a character before it was ever included, and now its just icing on the cake. That being said, it does not kill anywhere close to the numbers you're throwing out there, I'm lucky to get a kill if I connect at the edge at 100%. I like this new version a lot, it doesn't kill like until 160% but it gives really nice damage which is a better focus for the move. [/quote]

That was beyond horrible. The fact that you can still up B out of Leaf storm special fall it's still a very good attack. Ivy is STILL the only character who can KO with a ledge climb attack which should really be toned down to those of the other characters. The other nerfs were necessary, and if you ask me, putting the crit for razor leaf on the flash makes more sense anyhow.

Why is Ivy still able to KO with a ledge attack? Thats not even a reliable thing to even try in game, especially when you're going for a kill lol.

I'm ok with the nerfs. I don't really feel that this many were called for, but its not a huge problem for me. I just hope that there aren't any further ones beyond this.

 

[Thor]

I'm not damaging at all I've played minus max non stop with my friends the nerfs have to stop i have no more characters i enjoy using just make this balanced brawl i understand the developers put in hours of hard work and I was asking questions because only they know the method to there madness i don't know the answer I hate the new nerfs I can't find a character i enjoy using anymore i feel like this community has wasted potential they have the means they have the amazing staff they have the devotion its just not my flavor i'm not discouraging anyone I understand they're putting allot of free time and devotion in and i can respect that i just can't thank them for something i don't like sorry they have good ideas but i dont like the balancing thats not what brawl minus was made for in the first place I'm a mod user and i support the developers as much as i can and i was a huge fan of minus and loved it and i'm posting here to hopefully get back to the roots even tho it will fall on deaf ears this is criticism depending how you take it

I dare you to go play Balanced Brawl or vBrawl and tell us this is no longer fun anymore because everyone's been nerfed too much. Try it.

The devs are accidentally adding elements into the game that are toxic, and removing them makes the game more fun to play for those of us not using those characters - you're attracted to the toxic elements because they are abusable but that promotes a degenerate play they'd like to avoid.

What characters do you like to use in Minus Max anyway? I'm curious who was nerfed and how so that you don't have fun playing the updates (and why you think trying to balance it out is bad...)

Apologize for double post but it's two separate topics and edit was being picky so...

 

[Thor]

His approach is completely shut down just by blocking, he can be combo'd all day long from below, and his recovery covers a huge distance but is completely free to just spike 3 times since he can't air dodge during it.

Don't make me laugh - he has gyros that wreck shields (2 that regenerate instantly - dissipating on shield makes them like Falco lasers in that you can fire repeatedly], a laser that locks you in shieldstun, and free approaches that can rocket one past shield with side+B and end offstage so you avoid the lag - his approach "shut down" by blocking is a joke. He can be combo'd from below, sure, but so can most of the cast. Spiking ROB 3 times is much harder than you make it out to be, given his tremendously fast fair, his good uair, and his ability to shift where he is via side+b very quickly if it hasn't been used yet. You make ROB sound free when he has one of the most difficult to withstand approaches and a strong, flexible recovery that's probably top 10. Just because you're not getting in damage when someone is shielding doesn't mean ROB can't approach - his 3 projectiles mean one's shield is rarely strong enough to hold up to more attacks, and even if it is, many of his moves are not that unsafe anyway. You want someone with shield problems, look at someone else (I'd say DK doesn't like shields, given his horrible dash grab range).

They don't know to watch for random lasers or how to DI out of ROB's combos.

For the most part, you don't DI out of fair strings, you just pray you don't die. DIing bair is also absurdly hard.

I've saved a lot of replay evidence for this kind of argument, where I show that simply knowing your way around ROB makes him beatable even with characters like Pikachu.

If the ROB doesn't SD, probably still wins, and also, Pikachu's not as bad as people make him out.

I don't think of Ivy as 'the middle character of the pokemon trainer', I look at her as Ivysaur. She should be balanced on what's on par with the rest of the entire cast, not tried to balance around two characters you don't even have to switch to anymore. Ivy being strong didn't make Charizard any less viable, nor does nerfing her make Zard any stronger. I'm not saying I don't get the desire for Ivy nerfs, but it really should come from a balance issue instead of a canon one.

Agree fully with this.

I'd honestly argue leaf storm is completely unneeded. Ivy worked great as a character before it was ever included, and now its just icing on the cake. That being said, it does not kill anywhere close to the numbers you're throwing out there, I'm lucky to get a kill if I connect at the edge at 100%. I like this new version a lot, it doesn't kill like until 160% but it gives really nice damage which is a better focus for the move.

[/quote]

Kien learn to DI or play someone heavier than Jigglypuff on Yoshi's Story. It does KO Jigglypuff at those percents on Yoshi's Story with the freshness bonus I believe [in the older one], but a character like Link shouldn't die unless he's hit by the full thing starting at like 80% near the edge, and he might survive with good DI and will survive on stages with larger blastzones.

 

[Kien]

This is not a call for balance unless you're balancing for play against CPUs. Being able to pick up quickly doesn't make it broken, it makes it straightforward. The whole point I'm making is once you have actually played against ROB and learn how to handle the matchup, he's not any scarier than Wolf or DK. His approach is completely shut down just by blocking, he can be combo'd all day long from below, and his recovery covers a huge distance but is completely free to just spike 3 times since he can't air dodge during it. Your example doesn't really do your case any justice because you're taking ROB in against people who don't really know the matchup. They don't know to watch for random lasers or how to DI out of ROB's combos.

I actually find DK really hard to beat. I don't think he's broken though. I think he's where a Minus character should be. ROB can be combod for awhile sometimes, but all day from below would mean that he'd fall quickly and he kind of doesn't. His recovery isn't as vulnerable as you say really. Free to spike would only apply if he couldn't go to the top of the screen while recovering. As for matchups I'll admit that you and Gold are the only ROBs I've fought and you both feel practically the same aside of you being a bit more nair based.

A point I used to make a lot was 'hey, if someone else can do this ROB stuff I'll happily concede he needs nerfs.' And people technically did, they beat up computers and other people online who didn't know ROB. I've saved a lot of replay evidence for this kind of argument, where I show that simply knowing your way around ROB makes him beatable even with characters like Pikachu.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcjvETxYsLM

You're pretty much saying that a character isn't broken unless the majority can exploit them to their fullest. Using someone to their max potential and exploiting all of their abilities isn't the same, but when used together it's pretty apparent when it's unbalanced. People use the Vbrawl MK thing, but I really felt that Vbrawl Marth was just as bad if not worse. Vbrawl Marth had exactly one weakness which was a bad recovery. Losing to projectiles isn't really an issue when you can avoid them.

I don't think of Ivy as 'the middle character of the pokemon trainer', I look at her as Ivysaur. She should be balanced on what's on par with the rest of the entire cast, not tried to balance around two characters you don't even have to switch to anymore. Ivy being strong didn't make Charizard any less viable, nor does nerfing her make Zard any stronger. I'm not saying I don't get the desire for Ivy nerfs, but it really should come from a balance issue instead of a canon one.

It isn't a canon thing though. The intention of Pokemon trainer was originally 3 fighters who complimented each other. Squirtle was speedy and weak. Zard was slow and powerful, with Ivy sitting between the two. If Ivy is stronger than Zard and has safer attacks than Squirtle, then the entire concept is ruined. Ivy is actually a power character who also has great combos. Zard doesn't really need combos. But while you say that nerfing Ivy doesn't make Zard stronger that's true. What I did was I buffed Zard so that he was actually stronger than Ivy, because he wasn't. Ivy still has the strongest Normal attack in the game. An up smash that kills at 65 is in Falcon Punch territory, slow startup or not. Not to mention the largest hitboxes in the game outside of Ganon's up tilt, aerials that disrupt all things, great reach and attacks that offer protection from projectiles. The nerfs were mostly slight. Some of what was nerfed was actually buffed in general. But back to the point, Ivy being strong makes Charizard less of a threat. He's not as intimidating when Ivy can kill faster and easier.


Calling back to my first point, just because you couldn't find a way to DI out or survive doesn't mean there isn't one. I've played a lot of Ivy, but more importantly my playgroup has played AGAINST Ivy a lot. I can't get kills at 80% for the life of me. They know how to avoid the dangerous spots and punish when its safe. I know there's counterplay to Ivy because I see it in action every time I play offline.



I'd honestly argue leaf storm is completely unneeded. Ivy worked great as a character before it was ever included, and now its just icing on the cake. That being said, it does not kill anywhere close to the numbers you're throwing out there, I'm lucky to get a kill if I connect at the edge at 100%. I like this new version a lot, it doesn't kill like until 160% but it gives really nice damage which is a better focus for the move. [/quote]



Why is Ivy still able to KO with a ledge attack? Thats not even a reliable thing to even try in game, especially when you're going for a kill lol.

I'm ok with the nerfs. I don't really feel that this many were called for, but its not a huge problem for me. I just hope that there aren't any further ones beyond this.[/QUOTE]

 

[Kien]

Also you guys need to read. I said that Leaf storm KO'd that early BEFORE this update. I tested thoroughly from mid FD against Mario.

And Thor, we need to fight, because you make it sound as if I don't know what I'm doing.

 

[justadood]

please somebody fucking tell me something about connecting to wifi xP i've been getting ignored since the first fucking page..

 

[Smilindeth]

please somebody fucking tell me something about connecting to wifi xP i've been getting ignored since the first fucking page..

Homebrew+Gecko appears to be working just fine. Nobody else on at the moment to try it with though. I did enter my code+version few days before the first deadline for using the site method. (Is still up, so give it a shot for re-entering?)

 

[Ferrous Faucet]

Last night I was able to play 3.5 just fine. Tonight, it freezes on the strap screen. That is the same problem I had with 3.3. Thanks for your hard work making this mod but I can't play it!

 

[justadood]

Homebrew+Gecko appears to be working just fine. Nobody else on at the moment to try it with though. I did enter my code+version few days before the first deadline for using the site method. (Is still up, so give it a shot for re-entering?)

problem is that i tried getting a new wifi code, and now i don't know how to check what it is whenever i hit the connect to wifi option, the game gives me this "21-something-somtehing, whatever" error code, and doesn't even let me check my friend thing to find my own code xP ...should i delete the st folder in the brawl minus 3.5 build?.. for some reason, i have a vague memory of people saying that they erased something like that to make wifi work on an older version... ...would that let me see my friend code?.. or will my friend code be somewhere else i can find in the SD card???

 

[Bent 00]

please somebody fucking tell me something about connecting to wifi xP i've been getting ignored since the first fucking page..

Me too, dood. Nobody commented on my first big post in this topic...

As for your problem, you said you tried downloading an already-completed save file? That file might already have a (now-dead) Friend Code linked to it. Try getting rid of it and starting a brand-new save file, then try to connect to WiFi.

I've just started playing 3.5. Falcon first impressions!
- I'm OK with his infinite jab being removed.
- The changes to Falcon Kick seem OK so far...
- The Falcon Punch feels a bit different...? Was it changed at all?
- I hate the faster fall speed on Falcon. Was this really necessary?

With the faster fall speed, Falcon ends up too close to the bottom blast zone too often, and offstage Falcon Punch is suicidal now. Landing Flying Falcon Punches was one of my favorite things to do as him, and I was quite good at it until now. Faster fall speed ruins it.

I never felt much vulnerability from whiffed aerials, nor can I recall getting juggled too much before 3.5 (except by R.O.B.'s F-Air). Would you please consider reverting Fast Fall Speed back to 2.5, from 2.9? What do our other Falcon mains think of this? I've played Brawl- Falcon for 200+ hours now, and I really don't like this change.

I don't get how the Multihit hitstun decrease (1.0 -> 0.8) affects Falcon. Does he suffer less hitstun, or does his opponent suffer less?

I'll test 3.5 Falcon a bit longer, but I'll probably end up rolling him back to his last version...

 

[NEWB]

I may be wrong, but I think only his fastfall speed is faster, not normal fall speed. And I think the falcon punch has less hitlag now.

Even though you don't like the change, I'm sure you'll get used to it. The problem is in fact that you have played him for so long. Everything is subject to change, including physics. I would like this change to be elaborated more though. They did this so falcon would whiff less with aerials, but that sounds like a player issue, not a character one. I mean, this change is intended to make falcon less punishable on whiff, which is better regardless of what you feel. Am I on base here? Increased gravity helps samus a ton, so it probably helps falcon a little bit. The effect is lesser on him since his air combos happen during single increments of air time usually.

 

[Bent 00]

Did a bit more testing...

Bugs found:

Ike
- Using only F-Tilt, N.S.M. will not activate until ~150%.
- Using only Aether, N.S.M. will not activate until ~140%.
- Using only N-Air, N.S.M. will not activate until ~81-90%. If you interrupt the animation early by landing during each hit, N.S.M. may not activate until up to ~180%, maybe even higher.
- Using only Quick Draw or only Counter, N.S.M. will never activate.
- Bowser can F-Smash right through Counter. Warlock Punch and Gandouken beat Counter as well (probably intended).
- Regular Falcon Punch beats Counter, but instant Falcon Punch does not. Intended?
- Ike's N.S.M. Flourish is missing sound effects (sword hits SFX and "HRRRAAAHHH..." *BOOM*)
- The hits of Ike's N.S.M. Flourish still do not link into each other well. Certain hits often miss entirely. Aerial Flourish is particularly bad -- heavy opponents can fall right through it, even if the first hit connects.
- Ike's N.S.M. meter resets to 0 when he is K.O.ed, even if it is almost full. Intentional?
- N.S.M. Aether no longer heals Ike, but the healing graphic effect is still present.
- N.S.M. F-Airs ended early by landing occasionally produce no hitbox, but still damage Ike, or vice versa.

Pichu
- Pichu still gets bigger when grabbed.
- Pichu is still not affected by his Down B lightning bolt while grounded. Intentional?
- Pichu's pummel does 1% damage to his opponent and 1% to himself. Pretty useless.
- Pichu's Side B (charged or not) cannot kill, even if the opponent is at 999%. o_o
- Pichu still has oversized "hit by electric attack" graphic effects.
- Pichu's Static can still hurt Ganondorf (Jab), Zelda (Jab, Up Smash), Sheik (Side B), Z.S.S. (Up Smash), R.O.B. (Laser), Fox (Reflector), Wolf (Reflector, Side B), Ness (D-Taunt), Lucas (Neutral B, D-Smash), Mr. G&W (Judge #3), Olimar w/ Yellow Pikmin (F-Smash, D-Smash, U-Air, F-Air, D-Air), Pikachu (Thunder Jolt, F-Air) and Pichu (F-Smash, D-Air).

Misc. other observations and thoughts:
- Jigglypuff can no longer heal into negative percent, but Meta Knight still can, with his pummel.
- Zelda's D-Tilt ranged hitbox has been moved much closer to her. You have to be practically right at the edge to land it now, and the opponent is probably going to have ledgegrab invincibility anyway, so why bother? The new trajectory is OK, but moving the hitbox this close has ruined the move IMO. I don't like the new ranged Dash Attack trajectory either, but I'll test Zelda out more before giving up on this version.
- Captain Falcon can use Side Taunt to blow up Snake's land mines. The pull effect is Counterable.
- IMO, Ike's N.S.M. needs more work. Using Counter shouldn't go straight into Flourish; you should have a choice like in 1.01. If B is held, Eruption should just charge more (already at max) and remain shield-cancellable.I'm not sure N.S.M. should be lost upon K.O. anymore, since it's hard for Ike to get without getting in critical damage himself. Lucario's boost is superior, since he gets his from himself taking damage (which is definitely gonna happen), whereas Ike has to earn his boost with sword attacks. Lucario is better all around. If Ike doesn't have a choice whether to enter N.S.M. or not, should he really take so much damage from his own attacks? Ike is forced to become a glass cannon. If he stays the way he is now... Considering that he loses N.S.M. upon being K.O.ed, and that he basically loses Counter and stall-able Eruption while in N.S.M., it's worth considering making Ike not damage himself at all IMO. His power boost system should be as useful and efficient as Lucario's, in a different way.

That's all for now. Devs' comments on this post and my last long post on page 1 would be appreciated.

 

[Bent 00]

I may be wrong, but I think only his fastfall speed is faster, not normal fall speed.

Nope, his normal fall speed is faster too. EDIT: My mistake, it's a change to the Falcon Punch itself that has made offstage Falcon Punches suicidal in 3.5. Normal fall speed is unchanged.

And I think the falcon punch has less hitlag now.

I might be OK with the changes to Falcon Punch if it just didn't fall so fast offstage... But I think I like the previous version better. It had more "oomph" to it, and this new one feels too slippery in the air.

Even though you don't like the change, I'm sure you'll get used to it. The problem is in fact that you have played him for so long.

I don't think so, man... Ever since 3.3, there seems to be more and more new things I can't stand. There's a lot more good than bad, but some things were perfect as they were, and didn't need to be changed.

Everything is subject to change, including physics. I would like this change to be elaborated more though.

I don't think Falcon needed to be changed at all, personally. He was awesome the way he was... I'd like to hear the devs' detailed reasoning behind this.

They did this so falcon would whiff less with aerials, but that sounds like a player issue, not a character one. I mean, this change is intended to make falcon less punishable on whiff, which is better regardless of what you feel. Am I on base here? Increased gravity helps samus a ton, so it probably helps falcon a little bit. The effect is lesser on him since his air combos happen during single increments of air time usually.

I had zero problems with whiffed attacks or the vulnerability that followed them before. Changing one of Falcon's core physics just to help him get juggled a bit less makes no sense to me. He feels too much like Melee Falcon now, IMO.

I don't think Falcon's Up Smash's hitbox needed to be nerfed, either. Plenty of other characters have hitboxes bigger than you would expect.

Gold_TSG, care to comment on Falcon's changes? I know you're happy with the removal of Falcon's infinite jab (as am I). What about everything else?

One more little thing: On the CSS, Marth should be on the far right of his row, rather than the far left. Then, Marth should switch places with Roy, and Roy should switch with Ike. Just my opinion. Keeps the Fire Emblem reps together.

 

[Thor]

And Thor, we need to fight, because you make it sound as if I don't know what I'm doing.

That was literally only in reference to "Leaf Storm KOs at 90% midstage," which is only true on small levels or high up - or else you play light characters, as that move, from all my experience, doesn't KO Link until at least 80% on the stage edge (See here at about 2:05, I fall into it and end up at 110%, so that would be the full thing at 75%, and I don't die until my bomb KOs me, which means I don't die at 75% on the ledge : ). I also did say "[in the older version]" just so you know. Or else I'd appreciate knowing what your benchmarks are for determining these KO numbers (it's possible I just play fatties, though I don't seem to have this problem with even Falco...).

That said, I'd love to have more people to play, so sure. My FC should be below my name. I'll get yours in eventually.

And I am sorry for offending you, but your comments on Leaf Storm's old form seemed a bit exaggerated (as does Glyph's assertion that ROB's approach is shut down by shields...).

If Falcon's normal fall speed is faster, that should not be a thing, unless aerial raptor boost lag is reduced (on whiff) or else his recovery just got even worse (then he couldn't do raptor boost -> up+B on the level with the ledge - he could barely do this in 3.3...).

I wouldn't mind seeing aerial Falcon kick's length shortened, so that he can recover a bit easier, but considering this addresses one of his two weaknesses, and he has ways to compensate both of them sort of (current Falcon Kick, raptor boost addresses both a bit), I'd understand the change not happening completely.

Hoping I'll get used to new Samus.

 

[SAHunterMech]

Hello Bent, I don't believe we've met yet.

Actually, I was the one who coded falcon changes this time. First off, I have to set the record straight. Falcon's Fastfall speed was adjusted this update. Not gravity, not fallspeed, just fastfall speed. Max Fallspeed, aka Terminal Velocity, has always been 2.

With this in mind, fastfall was increased to help Falcon out. Simply put, Fast Falling was not up to par compared to his other movements, which he needs to be the slippery, pressuring jerk that he is.

Moving on to U-Smash, let me tell you something. There are disjointed hitboxes, and then you have Falcon's U-Smash, which was the mother (father?) of all disjointed hitboxes. The first hit had an x-offset of EIGHTEEN, which equals about 3 Falcon's widths distance. This meant that you could use the move to hit people from an obscene distance, almost 1/3 of Final Destination (albeit, only the first hit would connect). I shortened the distance until both hits would connect reliably.

I can also give you the lowdown on the new Falcon Kick. Basically, the move had major issues at point blank. If you were close enough, Falcon would go THROUGH the opponent he was trying to combo. I've done my best to tweak the move so that Falcon will 'carry' the opponent alongside him, to make sure they end up in front of him so you can cancel and start your combo. To help this further, hitlag has been reduced during the multihit, giving opponents less time to DI out of it.

Finally, Falcon Punch's hitlag has indeed been reduced. This was because, in multiplayer/team matches, Falcon would catch someone with a PAUNCH, but not get to finish because of the hitlag holding him in place, which might as well be a sign that says 'KICK ME'. If we're going off of the way the move has functioned since the beginning of Smash, if you successfully land a paunch, you deserve to get all the damage it doles out. This is rudimentary when it comes to 64/Melee/VBrawl, since the move had only one hit, but in Minus, Paunch success was not 100% guaranteed. As much as I love watching people suffer, slowly and painfully, through the multi-hit, I would rather be guaranteed the move finishes than have a lengthy hitlag.

 

[Glyph]

Balance

 

[SAHunterMech]

Please tell me that is from before my changes, heh heh.