Brawl Minus 4.0 Changelog Preview!

[Mariosonicman1]

Meanwhile, the devs are like...

sometimes i cant tell if your asking them to give you a warning or not with these posts.

regardless, the only way we can see if this ko spike is as bad as it is is if they show a video of it in action.

 

[Destructo]

sometimes i cant tell if your asking them to give you a warning or not with these posts.

I am dying send help
This is further made hilarious when you look through the Minus MAX 1.01 launch thread, where you see everyone being docile and kind to each other, and now it's like a bunch of cranky old men yelling at each other.

 

[Thor]

I am dying send help
This is further made hilarious when you look through the Minus MAX 1.01 launch thread, where you see everyone being docile and kind to each other, and now it's like a bunch of cranky old men yelling at each other.

I think there's a sense of panic, of sorts. In MAX 1.01, it was understood there would be *many* patches and months to get dumb things added, things that were dumb in a bad way removed, etc. This is the last patch... one shot to get it as right as possible, so to speak.

 

[Pin Clock]

I think there's a sense of panic, of sorts. In MAX 1.01, it was understood there would be *many* patches and months to get dumb things added, things that were dumb in a bad way removed, etc. This is the last patch... one shot to get it as right as possible, so to speak.

Last major update, not last patch. Very different things.

 

[Destructo]

Last major update, not last patch. Very different things.

Well... That's a game changer. Hooray, no more angry grandpas! We can go back to being willing to kindly consider practically anything anyone says!

 

[Bent 00]

Well... That's a game changer. Hooray, no more angry grandpas!

Sorry, but I'm stuck in Angry & Disappointed Grandpa mode until Ganondorf gets a Neutral B worthy of his character.

And that's never gonna happen officially, so...

We can go back to being willing to kindly consider practically anything anyone says!

Spoiler

 

[Thor]

Well... That's a game changer. Hooray, no more angry grandpas! We can go back to being willing to kindly consider practically anything anyone says!

I consider what other people said, I just happen to have stronger opinions than I did back then. But I'll try more nicey-nicey if that makes ya feel better.

 

[Neville]

The reason everyone seems like a crotchety old grandpa is because everyone thinks they're so right. I'm making some gifs when I get home to demonstrate the difference between the true spike dair, and a meteor dair of equal power.

 

[Bent 00]

The reason everyone seems like a crotchety old grandpa is because everyone thinks they're so right. I'm making some gifs when I get home to demonstrate the difference between the true spike dair, and a meteor dair of equal power.

Be sure to show how Sonic's 4.0b D-Air OHKOs the majority of the cast at FD ledge-level and below, except at very low percents.

Again, the problem is how the victim can't act out of the hitstun until it's too late to recover.

 

[Neville]

Be sure to show how Sonic's 4.0b D-Air OHKOs the majority of the cast at FD ledge-level and below, except at very low percents.

Again, the problem is how the victim can't act out of the hitstun until it's too late to recover.

That was my plan. I think Sonic's dair should work like PM's. A meteor at the very beginning but a strong horizontal hit for the ret of the move. It would certainly fix dair> spring spike.

 

[Destructo]

That was my plan. I think Sonic's dair should work like PM's. A meteor at the very beginning but a strong horizontal hit for the ret of the move. It would certainly fix dair> spring spike.

That would literally be perfect.

 

[Valravn]

Man, I leave for a couple months and you people are still whining about Sonic. The character is fine. If you don't want to get dive kicked at the ledge, don't put yourself in situations where it's possible. You can DI his throws, SDI out of Nair, whatever you have to do. It's going to work sometimes, but that's the nature of the game. It boggles my mind how Sonic-focused these threads seem to be. Meanwhile, Captain Falcon has a handful of KO moves that are safe on shield and combo into each other, Zelda can't do anything to people approaching her diagonally, Meta Knight doesn't hand out free swords, and Pichu exists.

Why can't you guys complain about what I complain about?

 

[Gold_TSG]

And so the Dark Lord emerges from the shadows...

People complain because it is a legit complaint whether you like Sonic or not. If an attack shouldn't be killing so easily so early while being so safe, then people have every right to complain. You are no different. If you are unhappy with Falcon, voice your complaints, and do so more adamantly than just hinting at it once and then letting it drown in a flood of comments. Sonic's case isn't just one person complaining, but multiple, so it can't just be ignored.

And once more, he returns to the shadows...

 

[Valravn]

I don't constantly complain about Falcon because there's nothing actually wrong with the character. He frustrates me, but any complaints I have about him are honestly rather petty. I can't think of a character in this game that is too strong to be balanced. Just one character who annoys me by design.

Olimar can choose to either use all of his moves, or spam pikmin relentlessly. Either way is roughly as effective as the other.

He annoys me because the two playstyles don't have a balanced skill/reward paradigm. You have to put in a lot of work playing the character properly to do better than some guy spamming side B, and your peak is probably not a lot higher because of the character's range limitations and kinda terrible movement. Does he need to be nerfed? Absolutely not. I haven't played against an Olimar yet who I haven't been able to beat most of the time. That might be a regional thing, but it's more likely that nobody wants to play Olimar enough to get good at it.

 

[Kymaera K1ng]

I don't constantly complain about Falcon because there's nothing actually wrong with the character. He frustrates me, but any complaints I have about him are honestly rather petty. I can't think of a character in this game that is too strong to be balanced. Just one character who annoys me by design.

Olimar can choose to either use all of his moves, or spam pikmin relentlessly. Either way is roughly as effective as the other.

He annoys me because the two playstyles don't have a balanced skill/reward paradigm. You have to put in a lot of work playing the character properly to do better than some guy spamming side B, and your peak is probably not a lot higher because of the character's range limitations and kinda terrible movement. Does he need to be nerfed? Absolutely not. I haven't played against an Olimar yet who I haven't been able to beat most of the time. That might be a regional thing, but it's more likely that nobody wants to play Olimar enough to get good at it.

Aren't you a bit bias as a... Sonic Main?

 

[Gold_TSG]

Olimar is an odd case because he is so unique. That is neither here nor there, however. The complaint people have is a single move on one character, a move that has high reward with low risk. The fact that he can pretty much guarantee a stock out of his dair is inexcusable, when those who SHOULD have that do not. His dair is programmed to be un-meteor-cancellable, which means the opponent cannot recover from this move during the hitstun. Add to this his spring, which also has a meteor effect, and you have an inescapable meteor combo that will 95% of the time guarantee that stock loss. That is not a balanced duo of attacks. Nothing will save you from that except not getting put in that situation, which is far easier said than done. He has plenty of options to get people offstage to set up for that combo, it isn't difficult to do in most situations, and he has no risks in going for it. Making his cancel on dair on-hit only doesn't change the function of the move, since it accomplishes the same thing regardless, he's simply put in a situation where he should jump higher to set up dair and still be able to recover.

This is why I suggested taking some power away from dair and making it meteor cancellable. He could use that power elsewhere, and taking away the guarantee makes him less irritating to fight since he's hard enough to hit as is in competent hands.

 

[Valravn]

Aren't you a bit bias as a... Sonic Main?

Biased against Olimar? I don't see why. Biased towards Sonic? Maybe, but not excessively I think. I play him only slightly more than I play Peach, Ganondorf, Lucario, Meta Knight, Dedede, Falco, Zelda, Charizard, and Sheik.

Olimar is an odd case because he is so unique. That is neither here nor there, however.

If it's not here, where is it? You wanted me to discuss what I thought was wrong with the game. It's a little weird to ignore it just because it's not about Sonic. I want to know what other people think about Olimar. Does anyone know a good Olimar player? Is he as obnoxious to other people as he is to me?

As for Sonic's Dair being turned into a meteor...

It is a meteor.

Moreover, so is the spring. If you want to meteor cancel both, you can just tap jump cancel the first one and up B out of the second one. You'll lose a little altitude, but for most characters you should be fine if you're not too far away horizontally.

As for no risks going for the Dair offstage, that seems very strange to me. Sure, if he does it out of a forward/back throw and you DI to a place where he can get it while you're unable to act, he'll land it. If you can act, just air dodge. It's Brawl, it doesn't kill you. If you're feeling lucky, throw out a hitbox to trade with it. He'll probably die in the abyss along with you.

Are you getting thrown offstage too much? Get out of the way when Sonic moves in to grab you. If he does grab you near a ledge, DI up and in. Are you being thrown off with aerials? All of them are wacky multi-hit moves and you should be able to SDI clean through Sonic and avoid being thrown off entirely.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Biased against Olimar? I don't see why. Biased towards Sonic? Maybe, but not excessively I think. I play him only slightly more than I play Peach, Ganondorf, Lucario, Meta Knight, Dedede, Falco, Zelda, Charizard, and Sheik.


If it's not here, where is it? You wanted me to discuss what I thought was wrong with the game. It's a little weird to ignore it just because it's not about Sonic. I want to know what other people think about Olimar. Does anyone know a good Olimar player? Is he as obnoxious to other people as he is to me?

As for Sonic's Dair being turned into a meteor...

Moreover, so is the spring. If you want to meteor cancel both, you can just tap jump cancel the first one and up B out of the second one. You'll lose a little altitude, but for most characters you should be fine if you're not too far away horizontally.

As for no risks going for the Dair offstage, that seems very strange to me. Sure, if he does it out of a forward through or whatever and you DI to a place where he can get it while you're unable to act, he'll land it. If you can act, just air dodge. It's Brawl, it doesn't kill you. If you're feeling lucky, throw out a hitbox to trade with it. He'll probably die in the abyss along with you.

Are you getting thrown offstage too much? Get out of the way when Sonic moves in to grab you. If he does grab you near a ledge, DI up and in. Are you being thrown off with aerials? All of them are wacky multi-hit moves and you should be able to SDI clean through Sonic and avoid being thrown off entirely.

The conversation was about Sonic, not Olimar. That is why I did not stick to it.
And yes, I am aware it is being turned into a meteor. That is because of the complaints. I am simply addressing what it is currently, and why it needs to be changed.
You can throw all these situations for DI and SDI at me all you want, but you fail to see that A) not everyone fully understands DI, and B) not everyone can SDI very well. Sonic is quick. If he runs in to grab and set up for this combo, not everyone is able to react at the same speed to avoid it. I'm highly skilled myself, and even I can't SDI very well.
I fail to see why there is any reason to debate this if it's as easy to avoid as you claim it is, since you won't be affected by it at all.

 

[Valravn]

Sonic's Dair isn't being turned into a meteor. It is a meteor in 4.0b, also.

I know that not everyone understands DI or SDI. That's not any fault of the game or its developers. If people don't want to get combo'd relentlessly, they should learn it. (In every smash game.)

I fail to see why there is any reason to debate this if it's as easy to avoid as you claim it is, since you won't be affected by it at all.

1. It's not easy to avoid. It's moderately difficult, but easily mastered if you understand what's happening and put in 10 minutes of practice. Learning how to meteor cancel things is a pretty universal skill in this game, it's not like people just need to figure it out for Sonic.

2. Turning Sonic's Dair into a terrible (by comparison) horizontal knockback move (as suggested) definitely would have a negative effect on me. If I land a Dair on someone with the current build, they are not necessarily dead, but they are in a very disadvantageous position. If I don't land it cleanly, either I die alone or we both die. It seems fair as it is. Weakening the move seems very unnecessary to me.

 

[Bent 00]

Sonic's Dair isn't being turned into a meteor. It is a meteor in 4.0b, also.

It's been a while since I tested it, but IIRC, Sonic's 4.0b D-Air still cannot be survived if it hits at FD ledge-level or below, on the majority of the cast, unless they have very low damage (less than 10%, IIRC). The opponent is stuck in hitstun for too long to be able to recover in time.

We really need video evidence of Sonic's OHKO D-Air to put this to rest once and for all.

 

[Destructo]

How about we make it so that Sonic must work for a dair kill. Make it so that his dair props you diagonally forward, then spring up and fair the opponent to death.If the opponent escapes or Sonic misses, that's on him.

 

[Valravn]

It's already avoidable, and that change completely misses the problem everyone seems to have with it. That just changes it from a KO move to a setup move for a much less lethal KO move.

Why not make his forward throw launch at a higher angle, to allow the opponent to recover higher? That allows the opponent much more vertical room to work with. Or leave it as is and just get out of the way.

 

[Bent 00]

Sonic's D-Air shouldn't be more deadly than Ganondorf's D-Air. How about we use that as a reference point?

If you ask me, the only moves that should OHKO are Link's Mortal Draw and Luigi's Down Taunt.

OHKO moves are supposed to come with a hefty price tag, which makes them undesirable to use in most cases. That said, I don't support placing that burden on regular moves -- only taunts or secret moves that require special inputs should be eligible to OHKO. It's painfully obvious how the OHKO on [a certain move I complained about a lot] keeps its owner from being a better character...

If you want to keep the OHKO on Sonic's D-Air, make it an uncancellable suicide move offstage.

Don't want to pay that price? Bring its power level down enough so that it is in the same league as every other D-Air in the game.

 

[Thor]

"Learn to DI"
"Falcon has KO moves that combo into each other"


(Found somewhere on Google Images, search term, "facepalm")
They don't combo into each other if you know how to DI...

 

[Valravn]

I figured it would be too on-the-nose to put a /s on the end of my post. I figured the other complaints (meta knight not being a sword dispenser, pichu existing) would be enough sarcasm.

But yeah, that's my point. I don't see why this discussion continually only happens around Sonic. If you don't know how to evade combos in Minus, half the cast is broken!

Sonic's D-Air shouldn't be more deadly than Ganondorf's D-Air. How about we use that as a reference point?

How about we don't, because that's a meaningless benchmark to use?

Moreover, I don't understand why you're calling this move a OHKO, when it is not a OHKO. Moreover, the OHKO moves that do exist aren't suicide moves. They put you in terrible positions, sure. So does this one. You're plummeting into the abyss with an opponent above you.