Maximum 1.0 Tier List

Sammi-husky

Scientist #1
Minus Backroom
i almost agree with everything on there. but i disagree that marth should be that low as well. as for the unranked, since i mained squirtle for an extended period of time when i wasn't allowed to play lucario, i can safely say that squirtle should be B tier. i can't really give a detailed explanation for why right now...i may edit this post later with one..but that's my opinon at least.
 

gumbie

Member
Squirtle is in desperate need of a buff to Up-B. And for ZSS, I'd say she's already really good. She could use a buff to her grab, either increased knockback on forward or back or reduced lag on miss or both. Forward smash could use some hitbox and knockback tweaks as well. Her taunts are perfect for Ness style hitboxes too.
 

Kien

A Meaningless Circle
Minus Backroom
I really do feel like Minus Peach is at the worst, high B tier. My Link almost beat your ROB Glyph, and my brother's Peach can keep up with my Link. She's just really technical to use. Her Fsmash is deadly, her grabs are powerful or great for comboing, being able to dash attack cancel does a LOT for her. Even her side tilt is pretty deadly at the right percent. Her only weakness is really her bad dodges.

But I do feel like the 3 or 4 S tiers would be

ROB
Lucario
Link
Sheik

I'm not so great with Lucario, but going by what everyone says, he's up there.
Also, I don't think there is a D tier in Minus. The only way there could be a D tier, would be if someone was bad against everyone.
 

Glyph

Moderator
Edited my list again. This is a very nebulous list right now but at least it has all the characters in it finally. I dropped the D Tier entirely, moved Peach and Marth up a significant amount, but also had to blur the line between B and C to help with how massive B Tier was getting. I think the characters are a pretty fair assessment of 'C' though, where you're not dumb to play them but you are still going to have some really hard games now and then.


S Tier
1. Lucario

A Tier
2. D3
3. Zelda/Sheik
4. Fox
5. ROB
6. Link
7. Wolf
8. Olimar

B Tier
9. Ganondorf
10. Captain Falcon
11. Yoshi
12. Kirby
13. Ivysaur
14. Diddy
15. Ike
16. Marth
17. Squirtle
18. Mario
19. Jigglypuff
20. Samus
21. Donkey Kong
22. Bowser
23. Peach

C Tier
24. Snake
25. ZSS
26. Luigi
27. Pit
28. Ness
29. Metaknight
30. Sonic
31. Pikachu
32. Charizard
33. Falco
34. Lucas
35. G&W
36. Toon Link
37. Wario
38. ICs
 

13131

Well-Known Member
AT THE MOMENT:

S Tier

1. Lucario
2. ROB
3. Link

A+ Tier

4. Sheik
5. Fox
6. Ganondorf
7. Zelda

A Tier

8. Wolf
9. Kirby
10. Yoshi
11. King Dedede
12. Olimar

A- Tier

13. Diddy Kong
14. Ike
15. Mario
16. Captain Falcon

B+ Tier

17. Pikachu
18. Snake
19. Falco
20. Marth
21. Squirtle

B Tier

22. Luigi
23. Ivysaur
24. Metaknight
25. Wario
26. Zero Suit Samus
27. Peach
28. Toon Link

B- Tier

29. Bowser
30. Samus
31. Jigglypuff
32. Donkey Kong
33. Pit

C+ Tier

34. Mr. Game & Watch
35. Lucas
36. Ness
37. Charizard
38. Sonic
39. Ice Climbers
 

NEWB

Well-Known Member
So we all agree that IC's suck! Yeah.

I'd like to think some of those in c tier that glyph edited could do better, but maybe not. Strengths, aside, they gots weaknesses. Can we get a devs input? We have almost picked a tier list.

I like the approach 13131 has taken to naming the tiers, though it's sorta weird.
 

Glyph

Moderator
ROB is not S Tier. Take it from someone who knows a lot about ROB. I know its hard to consider him anything but after you've seen my games (wow that sounds so asshole-y) but you have to remember a tier list has to be based on a constant level of skill across the whole list. Just because one person does really well with a character won't move them up, they need to be consistently placing well above others by MULTIPLE people.

Same logic applies to the 'my brother/friend plays a REALLY good ______ so they should be higher on the tier list'. It needs to be subjective across the board otherwise it won't mean anything other than being a list of the characters we all happen to be good with.
 

Ph0x3h

Active Member
Someone should make a Weekend MAX thread, editing the OP with Friendcodes and putting some (rough) times for us to play so that we have a set time to really get some plays in. If no one says anything then no one really plays and that's no fun.

Know what, fuck it. I'll do it and edit it accordingly (even though I won't even be playing mostly.)
 

Glyph

Moderator
Make sure you check the BDOT thread on the other site, I already have a good number of FCs compiled in it as well as a Xat where we've met up to play several times now.
 

13131

Well-Known Member
sorta weird? how so? the character placements or the tier 'grades'?

as for ROB, what exactly are his weaknesses? bad recovery? lack of mobility, power, speed, combos, extremely good projectiles? bad offstage game?

i haven't seen you play ROB, by the way... so...
 

Glyph

Moderator
ROB's a jack of all trades. He does a lot of stuff really well, but never the best.

If you want a more in-depth analysis of ROB's weaknesses I typed up in the BDOT thread.
 

Kien

A Meaningless Circle
Minus Backroom
But ROB has little to no weaknesses unless against characters with reflectors. He has what could be called the best recovery in the game, the best aerial protection, the most flexible projectile which true combos into anything according to range, an offstage bair that pulls enemies offstage, low ending lag on powerful attacks, he reflects with his side b, can set up traps with down B, he can juggle heavy characters from 0 to death out the top of the screen...

I really do think he is S tier.
 

Glyph

Moderator
Show me more ROBs that do all that and I'll entertain an S Tier placement. Just because one ROB can pull that off doesn't mean every one of them can, and unless its replicable with the majority of players then it doesn't hold water.

I consider myself an expert on there ol bot, and think his placement in A Tier is more than fair.
 

NEWB

Well-Known Member
I can do that with rob. Not as consistently against people, but I can. I do it all day against the ai at least. I never even touched rob before minus, and I was doing that ever since he got his moveset. You have mastered everything that is rob, glyph, but it is VERY easy to play rob. The easiest in the game perhaps. You have got spacing DOWN with him, but it isn't hard to not do that, and just spam fair and other aerial shenanigans.
 

Glyph

Moderator
Doing it against the computer isn't what I had in mind lol. Can you record a replay? Even if you cant upload it, if you give me the files I can get it online for you.

I'm starting to warm up to ROB bring S Tier though. He has had some mild complaints about him before I got online, but there was never any talk of him being THAT overwhelmingly good until recently. It might admittedly be because I know his moveset like I do, but ROB isn't all that scary to me. His recovery can't be air dodged out of, meaning if you can bait out an attack from him you get a free hit. It's also far reaching, but painfully slow moving compared to other characters. A mindless fair spam is frustrating, but if you stay in ROB's blind spots he can't touch you.

I still think the biggest issue here is just lack of experience against him. Once you guys are more comfortable with his he approaches and when to watch for projectiles, then I think you'll be more on the same page I am.
 

Sammi-husky

Scientist #1
Minus Backroom
i understand where glyph's coming from, because we can't assume there are enough people in the community to say there is a wide enough variety of players. being broken or above somebody else should only be considered on a character to character basis. while ROB may be generally better then some characters, he's not just flat out better then alot of characters.

you have to assume that what you know, and consequently what i and everyone else knows about what can be done with a character is NOT everything that can be done. it takes a very large community of players to figure out what can and can't be done with a character. and while i think there ARE characters who are flat out better then most, you have to acknowledge the gap between skill level, play style, and matchup.

just because a GOOD ROB PLAYER can be pretty damn good, doesn't mean that it's easy to do or that it's undeserved. you have to take into consideration that if it takes an acceptable amount of skill then its deserved. the only thing that we can determine currently is that from within our community ROB seems really good, and that Lucario seems to be the best.

BUT THERES NO TELLING whether or not someone will come along and pick a character nobody mentioned so far, figure some crazy stuff out, and then become the new best character. based only on the fact that we hadn't seen that it could be done before, that character would have been placed lower. but after someone figures stuff out, it may very well become an S-tier.

the game simply hasn't been out for long enough / doesn't have enough active players (who are on the forums) for us to make a good judgement whether or not someone is just flat out better then another character regardless of skill.

while i do think that lucario is better then most characters flat out, the amount of skill that i PERSONALLY put into play against my playgroup more then accounts for most of the reason he is broken. given i dont even use his grounded side-b or double team very often.
and that just goes to show that we can't accurately judge these things as fact, unless one character is consistently beating another across multiple players. not just one lucario player beating everyone, but multiple lucario players beating out others the majority of the time.

that's what should constitute our judgment of who's "broken" or "OP". while GLYPH'S rob may seem OP, we have no way of determining whether it's attributed to skill and only someone of his calliber would be able to consistently do it, or if most people who just pick up rob can do it.

sorry for the massive post :p this is all just my opinion though

EDIT:

i second the rob lucario link and shiek being S tier though. they're definitely the characters i have the most trouble with, and can be totally overwhelming if you don't know the match-up and your opponent well
 

Pin Clock

Project Leader
Minus Backroom
Glad to see Kirby is recognized as the high tier player he is. I agree with Lucario's placement, as well as Zelda/Shiek's, and ROB's was a bit of a surprise but from what I've heard it's earned. Sadly I also think Marth and Peach are a little justified too. They just feel like they have to work a little harder than everyone else, Peach moreso than Marth. Marth needs mix-ups to his fairly predictable game and Peach just needs...power? Something.

One thing that I disagree with, however, is how everyone regards Link to be so high tier. Yes he has a very powerful fSmash and yes he has strong projectiles, but if you can approach Link or are in possession of a reflector, he's done. He is very strong, but once you learn to play against him you can really take him down without issue. I feel like Link being really easy to pick up as a character also skews people's views a little, like how ICs are bottom since they are so hard to play.
 

Sammi-husky

Scientist #1
Minus Backroom
while i agree with most of that, our Link main has shown me just how great he can be if you know his combo's. i agree that if you play safely and really know that matchup well, then link isn't TOO bad. but the fact that he CAN do crazy stuff is justification enough IMO.

while i can't speak for anyone other then myself, and i realize that 'oh my friends really good with him so yea' isn't a viable excuse, but i at least wanted to speak my mind on the subject. :p

nevertheless it's only my opinion.

Peach isn't too bad either, the mind games that are possible with her i think are pretty good. while i do think she may need a little SOMETHING, i can't place my finger on what. :p
 

Glyph

Moderator
Pin Clock said:
One thing that I disagree with, however, is how everyone regards Link to be so high tier. Yes he has a very powerful fSmash and yes he has strong projectiles, but if you can approach Link or are in possession of a reflector, he's done. He is very strong, but once you learn to play against him you can really take him down without issue. I feel like Link being really easy to pick up as a character also skews people's views a little, like how ICs are bottom since they are so hard to play.

I'd actually argue he's so easy to pick up because he's such a good character. Even a novice Link can land a few ftilts, maybe a grounded up-b too and those moves alone will beat someone who doesn't know what to watch on for. You raise a good point about the reflector, but Link has such a solid approach without projectiles at all that its not a huge loss to only use them when its clearly going to be safe. I've seen a few Links really take advantage of his Zair, which is a fantastic tool for getting combos started safely.

Also I might be wrong on this, but don't bombs generally blow up when they hit reflectors anyway? Maybe its just if they're thrown from directly above them? I dunno.

While I'm thinking about it, Link players, is there ever a time where fsmash is better than a charged up-b? I've found it much more difficult to deal with a Link who abuses the up-b, and practically never get hit by the fsmash.
 

NEWB

Well-Known Member
Bombs blow up because they aren't reflected with their trejectory. You reflect it, but it hits the ground afterwards if you reflected it when it nearly hit the floor.

Also, his grounded upb leaves him more vulnerable then his fsmash. The timing of the attacks are different too. Hm..... I use both.
 

Kien

A Meaningless Circle
Minus Backroom
I would say F smash is better than up B when you need to throw out something fast that also builds damage and leads into aerial followups. Oftentimes you can follow a jump strike with a jumping spin attack.
 

NEWB

Well-Known Member
Well, I think other people also need to pick up rob to understand.

What I think that makes ROB OP is that he has the most amount of options in the air in the minus world. He can kill with fair, nair, dair, bair, neutral b, and down b in the air. In the air, he can chase you after he hits you to do an aerial or reposition himself to attack with neutral b or down b. The fact that he has three midair jumps contributes to that! I think he needs to lose one midair jump to start. I don't know what else to do.
 
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