I've updated my previous list based off the experiences I've had playing online with a number of players. I am much more confident that this list captures the current state of minus, but of course there's still a lot of room for improvement. Several characters STILL have not been placed at all as I just don't know enough about them to do it myself. Any and all critique or suggestions are welcomed.
Here we go, previous version in black and recent edits in blue:
S Tier
1. Lucario - Hands down, Lucario is THE best character in the game. This almost exclusively comes from the fact that Lucario is actually rewarded for losing via his passive. A game against a good Lucario is not won until you finish off that last stock, regardless of how many you might have stockpiled yourself because whoops he is a suddenly strong enough to kill you in four hits. On top of that, Lucario's mobility coupled with his instant and on demand invulnerability make this a choice I have a very hard time seeing displaced. These were simpler times. Now we know Lucario can do all that mess, but also jump cancel the end of his double team and immediately go into a second one. And then a third. Or maybe he's rush at you with up-b. Maybe not. It doesn't really matter, Lucario can be outputting damage close to 100% of the match when played correctly. Hope you can space well.
A Tier
2. D3 - I love, love, LOVE the new D3. For the first time, I'm seeing a truly maximized version of a defensive character build. And played right, it is an absolute terror to face. D3's goon squad flat out wins against almost every other projectile, meaning 90% of the time he can give you no other option but to approach. If you're so foolish as to slam into his shield, its a free shield grab, which in turn is a free 18% plus whatever followup he can pull off. Not to mention the intangibility during his grab frames, meaning you physically cannot win that trade if D3 times it correctly. But the Dedede fun is only just beginning. Did you know his minions taunt when he does too????? You can ignore anything else about him, but no one can look the other way knowing THAT. Oh, and I guess turns out a smart D3 uses both Dededecree and his tilts/aerials to slam minions into you at mach 4. They hit so much harder than you'll expect, I promise. Have fun playing the game D3 wants you to, because unless you can outmaneuver a constant stream of hurt you'll never even reach him.
AND WHEN YOU DO HE'LL JUST SHIELD GRAB YOU FOR A FREE 18%.
3. Zelda/Sheik - I really think if ever there was a version of smash where you could benefit from learning both Zelda and Sheik, it would be Minus. Both characters deserve a spot in A tier on their own, much less with the support they give each other. Zelda's ability to space with her aerials/fsmash/ftilt is just disheartening at best, and while I absolutely suck with the teleport mechanic I'm sure mastering that would give Zelda a whole new level of power (plus max out the style meter doing it). A whole side of Zelda I never really expected was how potent her offstage game is.... while she's on the stage. Double din's fire, down tilt, down air, all super deadly and extremely safe for Zelda. Until you've played a Zelda who knows how to position these, you do not know true frustration. Sheik is, and always will be, just a combo machine. Things are going pretty well and suddenly you're getting batted around the stage with tears falling on your controller because damnit how did you lose control like this. I haven't played against a ton of Sheik (and so I am less confident in this particular placement) but I would never write off a Sheik player in tournament. And then my brother started playing sheik more seriously, and I ran into a good one or two online. It is not fun. Sheik can juggle damn near all of the cast by just walking across the stage and ftilting, OR should the mood strike she can jump cancel that tilt into pretty much whatever else. If ever there were any doubt Sheik sat up top, it is gone now. For the record here, I'd put Sheik above Zelda but still maintain that the best way to play is to learn both. It won't come in handy outside of game 1, but just having that option at all is a huge advantage.
4. Fox - Fox I have never really seen played how I would define as 'correctly'. This is because to be a great Fox player you have to not only be good at Minus, you also have to be just as good at melee mechanics. I won't pretend I know much of anything about Fox, but I think Fox has potential to be one of the scariest characters in the game. Where are you, good Fox players???
5. ROB - Stupid good. ROB's neutral air is quite possibly the best aerial in the entire game, hitting hard, all around him, for an extended period of time. A gyro used properly can completely shut down characters that depend on running in at you on the ground, and oh god that laser. A ROB that can consistently land a charged laser will have a hard time losing. Ignoring all of that, ROB has an incredibly aggressive approach in his side-b that can cancel into any aerial (which can be used in the air as well for a recovery aid) as well. Oh yeah and his up-b gives you enough time to safely recover from any distance or chase damn near anywhere without fear. OH WAIT and it also will cancel almost every spike that hits you. Seriously, try to spike ROB and just mash up-b, see how long it takes to actually kill him. I told you so.
6. Link - Its hard to see a character do (I think) 37% in a F-tilt and not put them near the top of the list. Oh and it hits incredibly far away, and moves forward. Best part is, that's just the start of Link's ridiculousness. Strong projectiles, range out the ass, massive damage output, and a straight forward recovery that covers an obscene amount of distance. But Link is slow. Too slow to keep up with some of the more devastating characters in the game, unless you play very very intelligently. Link's recovery also DOES go on for years and years, but its also plain as day where you're going to try to get to and how you're going to do it. It's not easy to hit Link out of it, but it certainly can be done.
7. Wolf - I actually started working on where I thought everyone would be about a week ago, and when I started I actually had Wolf at somewhere like high C Tier. I have since realized Wolf is really really stupid good, once he stops dying incredibly early from how janky his recovery can be at least. I've heard people talk about Wolf having the best recovery in the game, but I wouldn't even come CLOSE to saying that. It travels insanely far, hits hard, and moves really quickly, sure. But the margin for error in the entire process is next to zero. Something seemingly insignificant like cancelling into the wrong aerial out of side-b can put you out of placement for your up-b, meaning you have to correct your course at the last second and whoops sorry that wasn't -quite- where the ledge was looks like you're not going to make it back this time. Wolf's onstage game more than makes up for any shortcomings off though. With a jab combo -> you can reliably dish out I think around 25% at will. I feel Wolf's d-smash leaves a little to be desired in the power department, but as long as his bair kills as reliably as it currently is then Wolf will manage to survive. Wolf ain't no B tier character. Wolf is not easy, but a tier list is not meant to be evaluated at a low or even mid level of skill. A tier list is a representation of competitive play, and a competitive Wolf will chew you up and spit you out before you even realize that first side-b connected. Wolf's ability to walk an opponent across the stage with his jabs (which combo into his lasers), and COMPLETELY shut down a massive amount of approaches against him (again with his dumb lasers) make Wolf someone you'll likely find hiding under your bed late at night, just waiting for you to slumber off so he can shoot you in your face again with HIS LASERS am I communicating enough how good his lasers are because they are great.
Lets recap: 1. Jab combo into laser = bunch of easy free damage (and looks sexy as hell) 2. Side-b into aerials provides tons of mobility fairly safely (you're only really open BEFORE the move actually starts) 3. When you do your howl taunt the crowd automatically cheers. A tier.
B Tier
8. Ganon - Not a whole lot to say about Ganon that's not immediately apparent at a glance. Well above average recovery. Super hard hitting, with moves that come out quickly like u-air and wizard's foot. A big fatty who takes a while to kill. An unblockable projectile. Ganon is good. I knew Ganon was good going into this, but not the extent of it. Funny thing is, the things I knew made Ganon good are still the same, they just can be applied so much more effectively than I previously did. Thats not to say there's not new things to consider here either though! I've seen a Ganon catch me offstage with flame choke, decide 'nah wait I have low damage, I don't want to lose this stock yet', press A to cancel out of it, and then proceed to catch me with his up-b, spiking me to my death while he lazily floated back onto the stage.
9. Captain Falcon - I am very biased with this placement as a ROB main. Gyro and laser ruin all of falcon's approaches. Fair beats all of falcon's appoaches. ROB's approach beats falcon's defense. I do not know where to even start to put him so here he is in the middle somewhere. I still stand by what I've said before, but even with ROB's ability to shut down a lot of Falcon's approaches all he needs is that one falcon kick to get things rolling. I did not know that Falcon players would be able to land two knees sequentially, and that it meant death at even modest percentages. The short hop at the end of falcon kick comboing into aerials is crazy strong. Falcon players, I am sorry, and have seen the light.
Or maybe that was his nipples, I'm not really sure.
10. Kirby - I am hovering between putting Kirby at the bottom of A tier or the top of B tier, but either way I think Kirby is a goddamn monster. Kirby has enough mixups in his game with stuff like the inhale -> grab or secondary d-tilt that you never feel like there's a set move you should be doing, its just up to your whims. Kirby's air game is short ranged, but once you get something going everything tends to just fall right into place very organically. I personally believe Kirby has possibly the strongest gimping game available as well with his down air, especially considering how little a factor the opponent's percentage is when you land it against a character with a predictable or low vertical movement recovery. Funnily enough, my opinion of Kirby has only gotten better since I first posted this list. Kirby hits hard, combos fluidly, and inhale/grab catches a lot of people off guard. Not only that, but inhale offstage is incredibly lethal. BUT, Kirby's not an A Tier character. His NEED to be close to his opponent (wow clingy much) really hinders him in the heat of battle, when you have to really work hard to catch your opponent slipping up while they can just wait for you to approach and react from there.
11. Ivysaur - Ain't no one space quite like Ivysaur. Her bair is stupid good, hitting far enough away to keep almost any character at bay and hitting often enough to make it difficult to time if you want to get through it. I personally feel Ivysaur's excels most while an opponent is above her though. Uair hits with a range that you just don't see in any very many other moves, in fact it might be the single largest attack in the game (its at least up there). It will seem like its not doing much damage at a glance (outside of the sweetspot, which is a fantastic finishing move as d-throw often combos into it) but the sheer size of the attack with the flower effect mean you'll likely land at least two while an enemy is above you, and possibly more if you can abuse a platform. Razor leaf's critical hit is amazing. At random you'll just get a free kill, and even when its not a crit it at least does 10 damage and can wreck havoc on a shield. And then we got Ivy's new down-b in the air. I was almost giving up on the ol' girl before that, but its given her new life in the form of an edgeguarding technique that's surprisingly safe and MASSIVE. When positioned right, you'll not only cover the entire ledge but also the part of the ledge they would be able to land on to punish you. This means they can either - eat the hit or - somehow recover around it if they have a good recovery. Once Ivysaur gets a little bit of steam, its too easy to suddenly realize you've done 80% and have no plans of slowing down.
12. Ike - If you make it into no sympathy mode, any counter is a guaranteed full charge eruption hit. Eruption kills at like, what, 50% on most stages/characters? Maybe a little bit more? Ike is very much not quite mobile enough to be A Tier (tons of horizontal but very little vertical), which in my opinion makes this a very matchup dependent character. Anyone that has a solid answer to Ike's 'rush in and whack you with my sword' strategy can more often than not control the pace of the game at will. Especially when something as easy as Falco's lasers mean Ike has to resort to his fairly slow air movement/running animation, it makes it difficult to get any steam built up. But then there's the guys who just don't really have anything to keep Ike away, and its a bloodbath. Side-b -> jab combo puts so much pressure on the shield so safely that its practically all you need some games. See above. Ike doesn't have a ton of depth to him, but that doesn't mean he's not one of the best.
13. Mario - This placement is almost 100% on faith. I have heard people talk a LOT about how good Mario is, and I don't know enough about Mario to disprove it so here he is in A Tier congrats Mario you did it! Thankfully now I've had the pleasure of playing a handful of pretty good Marios and finally get the idea of the hype. I believe Mario's viability stems from his dair, almost entirely really. Without that being such a massive tool in linking together combos at will and allowing you MASSIVE windows to finish, Mario wouldn't honestly be that much of a terror. Fireball approach is ok, but nothing backing up and getting in the air doesn't beat out. Dash attack suffers from the same problems, just get above him and its nothing to be concerned about at all.
One thing I'd like to say to all those Mario players out there too, make sure you REALLY want your opponent offstage with you before you use your down-b. Just because you can pull that Ganon out there doesn't mean he's not waiting for you to start it up so he can smack you in the face.
14. Jigglypuff - Jigglypuff is a character I can see doing very well, but I feel is just too light to really excel in a world where most characters only need a few hits to KO her. Her aerials are great, but still will lose to anyone with a decent spacing ability if they know what to watch for. Rest is a great move, healing and killing pretty reliably... if you land it. Even the best jigglypuff player in the world will not land 100% of the rests they attempt, meaning every blue moon you're going to whiff and that's a death sentence against someone as light as her. I have seen exactly one good Jigglypuff, but the things I've seen are enough to make me wonder what that pink ball can do. Thunderpunch hits crazy hard, but what's really caught my eye is the gravity taunt. You're mobile during it, AND it affects people offstage recovering, AND it cancels into sing meaning it combos into rest. I am watching for a Jigglypuff to make waves.
15. Samus - Not really confident on this placement. Used to love Samus, haven't liked her since the Max update where she lost her Fair. Not sure exactly what changed but she just felt different. Based on how good the old Samus was, I'd be shocked to see her fall any lower than this.
16. Donkey Kong - I used to think DK was an easy, easy lock for A Tier. In a time before my friends could understand how to approach, you just needed to swat at everyone with your tilts that hit half a world away and finish with one of your stupid strong smashes. But once you learn how to approach a DK, the battle is already over. Barrels are a neat touch, but have very little place in a competitive match. Thats not to say they NEVER have a use, but considering how broadcast the attack is and the problem that simply attacking it sends it right back into DK's face make its reliability less than stellar. Which is why a good DK will never throw a barrel at you in game. He'll rely on his fast and combo-starting jab, and then follow up with whatever he feels like. This jab makes DK much harder to approach, but not THAT much harder. Enough to make me feel he's not high enough on the list at least.
17. Bowser - Heavy, hard hitting, and coated in a nougaty layer of super armor to keep him safe on most attacks. Bowser on paper is a beast to be reckoned with, but in execution I feel he falls apart. He's just too big of a target, and not all that tricky to space against. Super armor is great when an opponent doesn't expect it, but once you're well versed in his moveset you just wait it out and win. Bowser's neutral b is brimming with power, but its just not too difficult to be on the ground while he's on the air or in the air while he's on the ground. Bowser's a big slow fatty. Just keep his moves in mind and things should go pretty ok. On paper, yes what I said makes sense. In execution, its far from simple to dodge all of Bowser's B grabs as goddamnit they're going to be coming at you at every chance he gets. Not to mention Bowser is just a big fatty. Killing him is a CHORE, and gimping him is surprisingly difficult when he can catch any attacks that don't come from directly above or below with his aerial B.
18. Snake - Snake's greatest strength lies in his obscene weight coupled with his often frustrating-to-defend recovery. A smart snake simply recovers as high as he can and airdodges or slams through opponents with his heavy hitting aerials. You know what, actually forget that. Snake's recovery is a great part of his kit, but his true power comes from his ability to fight an opponent at any given distance. If snake is given a few moments to set up, you could have to contend with 1. motion sensor bombs 2. grenades 3. missiles fired straight up and coming back down 4. missiles fired right at your big ugly face 5. snake's down b 6. snake's d-smash 7. snake's f-smash. Snake's close range is not much safer either, with terrifying tilts and the option of grenade shielding to punish anyone who manages to navigate your minefield.
19. Zero Suit Samus - There is a reason people are clamoring for a Max update. She is not a very reliable character to play as, and I think a lot of that falls on just how weak tether recoveries are when almost every character has some means of knocking you down and away from the stage. BZZZZZT! Wrong Answer! Despite not having a Max update, ZSS is by no means someone to be dismissed. She is all over the place, all the time, with a fast projectile that is a combo starter and disjointed hitboxes that kill fairly reliably. A good Zamus is not easy to gimp, as I would have assumed. I can recall a specific instance where I managed to hit her down with Kirby's Dair, and was rushing back to the ledge just to be EXTRA sure she wouldn't be able to grapple onto it. From the bottom of the blast line, she STILL managed to beat me to it and get back safely. She moves FAST. Then her Bair hit me offstage, and turns out she has POWER too. Still in the end a very light character with a grapple recovery, which is why she's not higher on the list but most certainly not deserving of as low of a placement as she previously had.
20. Pit - Maybe not after recent nerfs????
21. Ness - Ness is a good character. Not great, good. Gone are the days of a single PK fire meaning you had pretty much free reign, as is the era of a fair that would eat through anything in front of it. Ness is still very much a powerhouse character, with a stupid good stomp and interesting aerial mobility with his jump cancels (not sure what its actually called when you cancel your double jump into an aerial). Outside of Ness' air game, he really doesn't do much to impress me though. His ground game seems mediocre at best, with both his up and down smashes being slow as molasses to actually start hitting (excluding the charge hitbox on the yo-yo but if you're hitting that your opponent doesn't know how to play against Ness) and a F-smash thats only good when spaced correctly. I think.
22. MK - MK is a much better character than I anticipated, with a damn near unlimited recovery thanks to full access to all 4 of his B moves. Not only that, but he combos well, and kills moderately early on. But as long as he's as light as he is and minus characters have such ridiculous knockback across the board, he'll never be much of a real threat. I welcome the day someone proves me wrong on this, but I don't see it coming any time soon.
23. Sonic - Sonic I see as a worse version of Fox. You can be anywhere you want at a millisecond's notice, but I just never really feel afraid playing a Sonic. He's fast, but still fairly predictable with his options. Show me a good Sonic player who can fully control where he is using his side-b and I'll show you someone I am scared shitless to play against. One day a true Sonic master will show up and we'll all be too slow and he'll laugh and laugh and we'll just lose and lose. But til then he's staying put down here.
C Tier
24. Charizard - I really struggled with where to place our favorite fire dragon, but honestly as much as I'd like to put him into B Tier I just don't see it there. He's so slow on both the ground and in the air outside of his glide (which if you get hit by you deserve to lose to Charizard, just block and try to roll when he comes in hot) that even with the crazy range on his Fair you'll just eat the 3% you get at max range and then rush in during the endlag since there's no hitstun at a distance. Rocks are a really cool tool, but cancelled out by smashing them. The one thing I will say Charizard has that is just GREAT is his down throw. Awesome knockback angle, good damage, great grab range and speed, its all there. Charizard also has a really nifty nair that can combo into itself when done correctly, for a pleasant 15% a pop. The fact that the hitbox starts behind you coupled with the grab out front make Charizard one of the better OoS characters in the game.
25. Falco - Falco is not a bad character. I am bad with Falco, and really REALLY have a hard time seeing how he is supposed to land kills. Against some characters its easy, but against others (see: ROB) you will struggle to kill him before 200% every single stock. I still think his new reflector is terrible compared to his old one as well, as by the time the actual hits start you can just throw up your shield or even just jab falco and the whole move is a moot point. Before, it was a powerful poke tool that hit up to start combos or even extend a combo as an opponent slipped away. All in all he just lacks the moveset to make him a truly scary minus character.
26. G&W - Hits hard, dies early. Not great range. Same as any minus character, he could be played very well and be a real threat but on the whole he just isn't quite on par.
27. Toon Link - Worse version of the big Link imo. Using arrows for stage control is really cool, but also very easy to avoid and even easier to remove with a d-tilt or most anything that would hit it.
28. Wario - Perhaps the character that feels the most like vBrawl, outside of Squirtle. He's good, honestly probably better than I have him right now. But I just don't see it yet. One day I'm sure I'll see a good Wario and it'll all come together but until then I'm pretty content with him here.
D Tier
29. Marth - This is a choice I expect to see some backlash from. 'Marth is great! Look at how easy it is to land a tipper! His dair is insane!' And yeah, both those statements are right on the money. But in the great big world of minus, ask yourself if a tipper is really that scary of a move. I'd be much more afraid of a TON of other attacks, attacks that hit harder without requiring you to space it at all. Not to mention that Marth's aerial game is good, but one dimensional. You can either approach with fair/nair, or cancel a neutral b into some other aerial. Marth juggles well, but no where near as well as some other characters thanks to his limited mobility in the air. Marth also suffers from a very predictable recovery and innate weakness to any ranged character.
30. Ice Climbers - I don't get what they do without chain throws that any other character doesn't do significantly better. Desync's are neat but also tend to get Nana murdered and then gosh don't you look a fool all alone out there.
31. Peach - I think Peach is just awful. I think she loses a lot on the ground. I think she loses a lot in the air. I think she has a lackluster projectile that now broadcasts when its actually dangerous, making it even easier to avoid or even catch and toss back. Peach also has a distinct lack of a resounding kill move outside of her U-Smash and Nair/Fair (unless I'm mistaken). Peach has some really cool mix-ups with cancelling her side-b into aerials. Makes her very erratic and difficult to catch... but she still just doesn't quite have that killing power she needs.
List format
S Tier
1. Lucario +/- 0
A Tier
2. D3 +/- 0
3. Zelda/Sheik +1
4. Fox +1
5. ROB +1
6. Link -3
7. Wolf +2
B Tier
8. Ganon +3
9. Captain Falcon +10
10. Kirby -2
11. Ivysaur +4
12. Ike -2
13. Mario -5
14. Jigglypuff +2
15. Samus -3
16. Donkey Kong +1
17. Bowser +4
18. Snake -5
19. ZSS +9
20. Pit -6
21. Ness -3
22. MK (previously unranked)
23. Sonic -3
C Tier
24. Charizard (Previously unranked)
25. Falco -3
26. G&W -3
27. Toon Link -3
28. Wario -3
D Tier
29. Marth -3
30. ICs -3
31. Peach -2
Currently unranked
Lucas
Squirtly
Diddy
Luigi
Yoshi
Olimar
lol
