Announcing Brawl Minus 4.0!

[Gold_TSG]

His aura was also based on his damage AND his stock lead. Minus's aura is based solely on damage, and kicks in starting at 75%. After that, his power grows very quickly. At roughly 100%+, his close combat could basically kill even heavies at like 20%, which is stupid, since most of them can put him at that % very easily, not to mention his self-damage control. Anyone who plays especially defensive can keep themselves from losing stocks to a heavy pretty easily, especially if they choose to abuse double team with the jump cancel post-75. His speed and combo potential is already impressive, as well as his ability to chase with extremespeed. Add in his insane power gains, and you have someone that isn't easy to fight, nor fun. The best lucario I was able to face was Kien's and he can't even use him to his max potential yet, and from that experience alone, it's easy to gauge how much more infuriating he can be to fight if someone mastered everything he could do. There's no reason for that power. People have complained about my DK before, with his combos, follow ups, power and armor, but he can't combo for too long due to his damage output, and he certainly can't chase. Not only that, but he's extremely vulnerable to projectiles and much more prone to being comboed due to his size and weight. IIRC, lucario lost weight in minus in some vein attemp to balance him, yet that lessened weight also can get him him out of combos sooner.

I simply have no love for what they did to him or ROB, and if the both of them won't be fixed, I have no reason to come back to minus. People have complained and given legit reasons for change, but the people in charge insist that they are right in keeping them as they are. ROB was at least starting to see some semblance of balance before I left, and rightfully so, as he is the easier of the two to play, but if lucario won't be rebalanced, then all I can say is, meh.

Just keep in mind that these are my opinions on the matter.

 

[Thor]

His aura was also based on his damage AND his stock lead. Minus's aura is based solely on damage, and kicks in starting at 75%. After that, his power grows very quickly. At roughly 100%+, his close combat could basically kill even heavies at like 20%, which is stupid, since most of them can put him at that % very easily, not to mention his self-damage control. Anyone who plays especially defensive can keep themselves from losing stocks to a heavy pretty easily, especially if they choose to abuse double team with the jump cancel post-75. His speed and combo potential is already impressive, as well as his ability to chase with extremespeed. Add in his insane power gains, and you have someone that isn't easy to fight, nor fun. The best lucario I was able to face was Kien's and he can't even use him to his max potential yet, and from that experience alone, it's easy to gauge how much more infuriating he can be to fight if someone mastered everything he could do. There's no reason for that power. People have complained about my DK before, with his combos, follow ups, power and armor, but he can't combo for too long due to his damage output, and he certainly can't chase. Not only that, but he's extremely vulnerable to projectiles and much more prone to being comboed due to his size and weight. IIRC, lucario lost weight in minus in some vein attemp to balance him, yet that lessened weight also can get him him out of combos sooner.

I simply have no love for what they did to him or ROB, and if the both of them won't be fixed, I have no reason to come back to minus. People have complained and given legit reasons for change, but the people in charge insist that they are right in keeping them as they are. ROB was at least starting to see some semblance of balance before I left, and rightfully so, as he is the easier of the two to play, but if lucario won't be rebalanced, then all I can say is, meh.

Just keep in mind that these are my opinions on the matter.

I must be doing it wrong - I've used close combat at 120% on a 50% Mario and I think he lived (was 50% post-CC).

Also I need to play Kien's Lucario... I've never had serious issues with a Lucario, and I play as Falco, who has lackluster KO power (bair is mediocre at best (but probably most reliable), fair is risky and awkward [and really only good offstage], fsmash is slow, dsmash isn't strong and has low range, same for dtilt, usmash is kinda weak too).

And that's why I'm challenging Kien (since I need to play it, ditto is as good a reason as any!)

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Can't wait.

 

[Greatest_Aether]

I'm interested to see what the team does with Ganondorf's Warlock Punch.

Also inb4 Bent says something about SFWP.

Edit: 2 l8

 

[Ph0x3h]

Sweet! I can't wait for this update! Me and my brother love this mod so much. It's awesome and I thank you devs for putting in so much hard work to making it happen. There is one single problem that I have with Minus and I hope that you address it:

Hitboxes on flying enemies.... This is literally the worst thing they could have possibly done in vBrawl and I'm so incredibly disappointed that it still exists in Minus. I have been trying to find a way to get the hitboxes to cease to exist for well over 6 months now and every configuration of code that I put into the gct just isn't working and the game breaks. So I've had to live with doing team battles with my bro, trying to go for some pretty cool team combos only to be hit by those damn flying hitboxes, screwing it all up.

So please... I would just like this to be addressed in the process of making 4.0. If it doesn't make it into the game, I'll deal with it, but you can't tell me people don't get even slightly annoyed by that, right? What benefit is there to having it in?

 

[NEWB]

Flying enemies? You mean when you hit an opponent and the opponent has a hitbox surrounding them?

 

[Thor]

Flying enemies? You mean when you hit an opponent and the opponent has a hitbox surrounding them?

If that's what he's talking about, I put my vote in for keeping those. I really like bowling where one enemy is the ball and the other enemy is the pin - gotta pick up those spares. It's a good disruption strategy and it can lead to some amusing moments.

 

[Ph0x3h]

Flying enemies? You mean when you hit an opponent and the opponent has a hitbox surrounding them?

Yes. Deadweight hits. Like in melee where it only applied to thrown opponents.

If that's what he's talking about, I put my vote in for keeping those. I really like bowling where one enemy is the ball and the other enemy is the pin - gotta pick up those spares. It's a good disruption strategy and it can lead to some amusing moments.

It has only lead to frustrating moments for me. I can't remember a single time where I genuinely enjoyed this hitbox existing.

 

[Thor]

Yes. Deadweight hits. Like in melee where it only applied to thrown opponents.


It has only lead to frustrating moments for me. I can't remember a single time where I genuinely enjoyed this hitbox existing.

I appreciate the physics of it. You can throw a hitbox or you can throw an enemy!

There's also [at least] one hilarious example of this in Melee where Hbox up smashes Ice then throws his teammate Plup into him to hit Ice and knock him to the other side of the stage (look at about 3:15):

 

[Mariosonicman1]

umm... if your going to remove the footstool code, how will we be able to use marios super destructive footstool attack? wont that remove a pretty good attack from him once its removed?

 

[Ph0x3h]

I appreciate the physics of it. You can throw a hitbox or you can throw an enemy!

There's also [at least] one hilarious example of this in Melee where Hbox up smashes Ice then throws his teammate Plup into him to hit Ice and knock him to the other side of the stage (look at about 3:15):

I'm not advocating that the hitboxes be removed from THROWS. Simply from normal moves.

Am I REALLY the only person who is bothered by deadweight hits on normal moves? If so, just show me a code that removes those hitboxes and I'll put it on my own gct because I'm fed up with them.

 

[NEWB]

I mean, I've just never minded them. Also, whatever combos you are trying to can't be natural.

Mario, they don't mean killing footstools. They added a new code that gave you the option to map footstool to another input like how PM mapped it to up taunt. Ours causes desynchs on wifi though. That's why we are losing it for now (forever?)

 

[Mariosonicman1]

.
Mario, they don't mean killing footstools. They added a new code that gave you the option to map footstool to another input like how PM mapped it to up taunt. Ours causes desynchs on wifi though. That's why we are losing it for now (forever?)

i ask this because the change log doesnt mention changing the footstool to a different button, it just says its removed for the purpose of online play, which im unsure if it means disabled online, or just disable permenently for the sake of online, i just dont want to lose marios footstool kill move. its fun to kill that way.

 

[Ph0x3h]

I mean, I've just never minded them. Also, whatever combos you are trying to can't be natural

Unnatural combos... ok sure.

Just to give an example here... Bro hits an opponent my way and I, playing captain falcon, attempt to set up a grab combo of some kind with my upb. During the active grab frames of Falcon Dive the opponent's flying hitbox trumps the entirety of falcon dive and we are both left utterly disappointed because that shouldn't have happened. It kills high potential moments like that.

 

[Thor]

Unnatural combos... ok sure.

Just to give an example here... Bro hits an opponent my way and I, playing captain falcon, attempt to set up a grab combo of some kind with my upb. During the active grab frames of Falcon Dive the opponent's flying hitbox trumps the entirety of falcon dive and we are both left utterly disappointed because that shouldn't have happened. It kills high potential moments like that.

In my opinion you should just knee them, but that's neither here nor there. I've definitely Falcon Dived people who have the flying hitbox. I dunno what to tell you... do you have a replay of this? I'd love to see what happened...

 

[NEWB]

That just means you tried falcon diving to early. From what I understand, the cannonball hitbox is only active for a large portion of the frames the person is in hitstun.

I've definetly seen people get juggled around the stage with a variety of attacks. Just gotta time it better. I would try Uair into falcon dive if you want that falcon dive.

 

[Gold_TSG]

The situation you are explaining, I have done before. Sounds like you're doing something wrong, cause grab boxes have higher priority than attack hitboxes of any kind.

 

[pkjoan]

Just for curiosity, will we get any new character like Roy and Pichu?

 

[Greatest_Aether]

Just for curiosity, will we get any new character like Roy and Pichu?

Some speculate that Cole MacGrath will be added...

Actually, I think Mewtwo has a pretty good chance of joining Minus.

 

[Ph0x3h]

In my opinion you should just knee them, but that's neither here nor there. I've definitely Falcon Dived people who have the flying hitbox. I dunno what to tell you... do you have a replay of this? I'd love to see what happened...

Well, that's your opinion. And My bro records the vast majority of our gameplays so should I be able to find an instance through those I will upload it and let you know.

The situation you are explaining, I have done before. Sounds like you're doing something wrong, cause grab boxes have higher priority than attack hitboxes of any kind.

Of course it's my fault, I expected you guys to see it like that. However, the grab boxes only work as they should occasionally and are subsequently trumped by those fly hurtboxes. I've actually tested specific instances where these hurtboxes are most annoying (falcon dive) and have seen some random results. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't and there indeed was an attempt to make it as controlled as possible, but I don't have the tools to calculate precise frame data or anything so blegh.

That just means you tried falcon diving to early. From what I understand, the cannonball hitbox is only active for a large portion of the frames the person is in hitstun.

I've definetly seen people get juggled around the stage with a variety of attacks. Just gotta time it better. I would try Uair into falcon dive if you want that falcon dive.

Right. Position myself on the opposite side of the stage so that the active cannonball frames whither out by the time the opponent has already DIed completely out of the way.

I apologize if I'm coming across as harsh or bitter and it's not your fault. I'm just going to push this removal to the very end.

 

[pkjoan]

Some speculate that Cole MacGrath will be added...

Actually, I think Mewtwo has a pretty good chance of joining Minus.

OMG YES, I always wanted to see how Broken Mewtwo would be in Brawl Minus after PM 3.0!

On a side note, I really like the idea of OoT Adult/Child Link PSA.

 

[Greatest_Aether]

OMG YES, I always wanted to see how Broken Mewtwo would be in Brawl Minus after PM 3.0!

On a side note, I really like the idea of OoT Adult/Child Link PSA.

I think that Mewtwo shouldn't be a top priority character to add, because people might think we're ripping off PM. I mean, we added Roy after them, Fox is stated on the website to be "a parody of Melee Fox", etc.

I'd love to see Young/Adult Link in Minus.

 

[Gold_TSG]

A few things are taken into consideration when talking about things trumping a grab box, one of them being hitbox range. I don't know the size of character hitboxes when they are sent flying, but either you're using up B at the wrong angle (thus having a smaller grab range), or the hitbox is larger than the grab box, and thus is hitting you before it can connect.

As for the idea of pushing for removal, I wouldn't waste effort on such a trial. The biggest focus of Minus is to not make anything worse than brawl unless there is compensation elsewhere, so removing a basic mechanic like the cannonball box is not likely going to happen, 1) because it would make Minus worse than brawl, and 2) for the exact opposite reasons you want it removed.

 

[NEWB]

How does losing the cannonball hitbox make it worse than brawl? It doesn't effect 1 v 1s and is practicaly impossible to use strategically. The only thing the cannonball effect has given us is random hilarity when you kill someone by hitting them with a foe.

They removed whiplash recovery due to the increased hitstun and that has never been compensated for. I guess link has a great recovery but toon link definetly did not get any compensation for losing that. Samus hasn't been buffed to compensate that loss either.

 

[Gold_TSG]

If it doesn't affect 1v1, there is no reason to remove it. A lot of people enjoy the cannonball effect, myself included, as it adds to the chaos in FFAs and team fights. I am disappointed in the lack of it in Smash 4.

If things shouldn't be added for the sake of adding them, then things shouldn't be removed for the sake of removing them.