Brawl Minus 4.0bc Bug Report Thread
- Thread starter Bent 00
- Start date
Darxmarx
The Learning Star Warrior
I find this bug to only be present in the vBrawl portraits build. The minus art DL I use as a base for personal builds does not have this issue.
ESC Artiste
The Pot is heavier than Ridley
Okay, so I only see Lavender Town as the only stage which is glitched. However, Saffron City isn't available in the Melee Stage's select screen (it's Big Blue) yet it appears on both the 'Random Option' stage select and when changing Saffron City's (Big Blue) music. What gives?
Addendum: I have the Brawl-4.0bc Minus Art version.
Addendum: I have the Brawl-4.0bc Minus Art version.
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
Not sure how to replicate it, but earlier tonight I encountered a bug: Sheik's chain whip stopped stunning Pichu until I hit Pichu with a different attack. Pichu took damage, but was not stunned, flinched, or knocked back at all.
Mario's Fireballs / FireBrand SFX still glitch out frequently, too. Don't know exactly why, though.
Mario's Fireballs / FireBrand SFX still glitch out frequently, too. Don't know exactly why, though.
I know I've mentioned this somewhere before, but here it is again: Zelda's re-appearing Teleport only got a strong HitBox on its aerial form, when it was supposed to get it on the grounded version as well. IIRC.
player_03
P3
When a character is stunned, they can't be stunned again until they land on the ground. They still take damage from stun attacks, but they don't experience hitlag, hitstun, or knockback.
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
During the bug I encountered, Pichu was standing on the ground. I hit it with Sheik's chain whip several times, but the only effect I saw was Pichu getting damaged.
alaserdolphin
Member
AI Waluigi and Mewtwo (in particular) have trouble recovering.
Specifically, if they're offstage, they'll just fall nonchalantly to their death after burning their jumps. They generally don't use their special moves to get back.
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Not really "bugs" in the classical sense, but the AI for many of the characters make heavily suboptimal plays even when at level 9:
What I've noticed so far:
General:
Don't punish rest when missed. No (intentional) edge-hogging.
I have yet to see a DACUS being used.
Characters with pseudo-wavedashes (ROB, Wolf, etc.) neglect to use them.
Don't use ultra-taunts / don't often charge-up moves like Samus's Neutral-B in between stocks.
Pichu:
He doesn't really take advantage of all of his recovery, with Up-B generally getting used only once or twice, and rarely ever using Side-B.
Zelda/Sheik:
Uses Down-B. When practicing against one of them, it's really frustrating to have them switch randomly, given that no real player would do that (barring very niche circumstances). The wishful fix would be replacing both with legit moves, but I'd be fine with just removing that from the decision line-up.
Luigi:
Doesn't really use Down-B to recover, and rarely cancels dash attack into other things.
Yoshi/Ness:
I may just have not seen it yet, but they don't DJC.
FE characters:
Always flawless with using counters. This is where my knowledge of the AI runs really short in offering a fix, but I'm thinking lower the propensity to counter attacks that start before some frame X; that way things like Falcon Punch still get realistically punished while removing the jank that is countering in a window that no person ever could predict, let alone react to.
Falco:
Doesn't intentionally switch lasers, and doesn't understand at all how to wall with the slow lasers in neutral.
Jiggs:
Doesn't intentionally use explosion; I'm not sure if I want that to be a thing that they just go to immediately, but when Jiggs is up significantly in percent, I'd like to see more stock resets.
Snake:
Doesn't do sticky combos (up-throw,etc. -> kill off the top, explode sticky when opponent is offstage -> f-air, down-throw -> attach sticky, etc.)
I'll do some more investigation if I find anything else and/or remember some other odd ones.
Specifically, if they're offstage, they'll just fall nonchalantly to their death after burning their jumps. They generally don't use their special moves to get back.
-------------
Not really "bugs" in the classical sense, but the AI for many of the characters make heavily suboptimal plays even when at level 9:
What I've noticed so far:
General:
Don't punish rest when missed. No (intentional) edge-hogging.
I have yet to see a DACUS being used.
Characters with pseudo-wavedashes (ROB, Wolf, etc.) neglect to use them.
Don't use ultra-taunts / don't often charge-up moves like Samus's Neutral-B in between stocks.
Pichu:
He doesn't really take advantage of all of his recovery, with Up-B generally getting used only once or twice, and rarely ever using Side-B.
Zelda/Sheik:
Uses Down-B. When practicing against one of them, it's really frustrating to have them switch randomly, given that no real player would do that (barring very niche circumstances). The wishful fix would be replacing both with legit moves, but I'd be fine with just removing that from the decision line-up.
Luigi:
Doesn't really use Down-B to recover, and rarely cancels dash attack into other things.
Yoshi/Ness:
I may just have not seen it yet, but they don't DJC.
FE characters:
Always flawless with using counters. This is where my knowledge of the AI runs really short in offering a fix, but I'm thinking lower the propensity to counter attacks that start before some frame X; that way things like Falcon Punch still get realistically punished while removing the jank that is countering in a window that no person ever could predict, let alone react to.
Falco:
Doesn't intentionally switch lasers, and doesn't understand at all how to wall with the slow lasers in neutral.
Jiggs:
Doesn't intentionally use explosion; I'm not sure if I want that to be a thing that they just go to immediately, but when Jiggs is up significantly in percent, I'd like to see more stock resets.
Snake:
Doesn't do sticky combos (up-throw,etc. -> kill off the top, explode sticky when opponent is offstage -> f-air, down-throw -> attach sticky, etc.)
I'll do some more investigation if I find anything else and/or remember some other odd ones.
player_03
P3
Transform can be canceled into non-special attacks and into shield/grab/dodge. This lets you stall a bit before attacking, and it also lets you airdodge out of tumble.
alaserdolphin
Member
Very true, although I'd arguably still put that under the "niche" category. (And to my knowledge, the AI doesn't take advantage of that anyway; I guess a third possibility would be to add that into the decision tree.)
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Before I complain about something, I don't want to be the kind of person to offer a super vague alternative, so what comes to mind initially:
[Inb4 adding generic down-b counters]
Zelda would benefit from being able to change exactly where her extended hitboxes are (down-b -> lengthen/shorten the space between her and the secondary hitboxes). I don't know if it'd be better as a toggle a la Falco lasers or as some kind of Monado dealio, where she can basically cycle between a few lengths (or even properties, but I think that might buff her too much. I'd be willing to help lab that if anyone wants to make a mod).
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Honestly, Sheik is probably one of my worst characters on the entire roster, so take this with a grain of salt:
My immediate thought is just adding either Pisces or Bouncing Fish; someone who plays Sheik can help me out here.
player_03
P3
One way to make it less niche would be to allow B-reversing it. Both Sheik and Zelda would benefit from the ability to instantly switch between fair and bair.
alaserdolphin
Member
10/10 This is actually a fantastic idea! To my knowledge, it shouldn't be too hard to integrate either. Would you be okay with letting me put that on the suggestion thread?
Bent 00
Longtime Limit Breaker
As a Zelda main, dedicating her Down-Special just to switching up the placement of Zelda's ranged hitboxes is a bad idea IMO.
1.) It's a waste of a Special move slot, because Zelda's ranged hitboxes have excellent placement by default, and
2.) THE part of Zelda's kit that casual players complain the most about is having to memorize exactly where her ranged hitboxes are at all times. Asking them to remember TWO different sets of ranged hitboxes is too much to ask.
I'm content with Zelda keeping Transform. If it is replaced, it should be replaced with a new move that is at least as useful as Bouncing Fish.
I do like the idea of Transform being B-Reversible.
1.) It's a waste of a Special move slot, because Zelda's ranged hitboxes have excellent placement by default, and
2.) THE part of Zelda's kit that casual players complain the most about is having to memorize exactly where her ranged hitboxes are at all times. Asking them to remember TWO different sets of ranged hitboxes is too much to ask.
I'm content with Zelda keeping Transform. If it is replaced, it should be replaced with a new move that is at least as useful as Bouncing Fish.
I do like the idea of Transform being B-Reversible.
Thor
Well-Known Member
Even PMDT AI had failings, and IIRC they put a crapton of work into looking into fixing AI [which is why the AI sometimes waveshines at all]. Given that Minus is as late as it is, and I'm sure the amount of effort that's put in, all the things you've mentioned are unrealistic, except possibly coding Waluigi/Mewtwo into using their recoveries correctly and *maybe* having Sheilda not use down+b. [Not to underestimate our dev team, but this is a long list of things, and most of them seem pretty tricky to deal with].
alaserdolphin
Member
I don't want it to seem like I'm not grateful of the crazy awesome stuff our dev team has done in terms of AI and in general; I hope it doesn't look that way! A lot of that is just wishful thinking.
If it's any help, here's a bit of rough pseudocode for each of those later suggestions:
Again, this is really wishful thinking; I'll be happy with whatever you guys do!
When you wavedash off ledge with Wolf sometimes you brawl airdodge, which fucks Wolf hard because of his fastfall speed. Is there a way to make it so this doesn't happen. My assumption is that its the game still registering the wavedash input if you do it too close which is the same thing as an airdodge input.
Just wanna add to this...
Apparently they WILL try to recover sometimes, I've had a match with a Level 1 Mewtwo and it did use both his jump and his 2 Up Bs, but for only the first 2 times, after that it straight up gives up trying and doesn't do anything to recover.
But wait... look closer......
i can't believe you've done this
AGentleStar
Video Editor
Kirby has this Dead Zone in which his Inhale does not pull his opponent closer. Any closer or farther and it works, but the spot directly in front of Kirby does nothing. Is Pichu just that small? ...naahh! That would be ridiculous. 
